What's a good "second 3D printer" to print?  

Re: What's a good "second 3D printer" to print?

CR10S variants seem to be picking up lots of steam and are a good choice behind the Prusas.

Huge build volume, a good bowden setup, and thingiverse is chock full of modifications for it.

But i'd prefer a Voron CoreXY V2 build, no moving bed an the thing can bi sized up and it's bloody fast.
more here https://www.reddit.com/r/voroncorexy/

Re: What's a good "second 3D printer" to print?

Cost wise I'd say an Ender 2 or the new Ender 3 are worth a look at. I have the 2 and it is a solid machine for under 200 and so far the 3 is getting similar reviews though it needs a little more fiddling to dial it in as I understand it and it is around 200 or so.

Re: What's a good "second 3D printer" to print?

If you want to "print" a second printer than take a look at the hypercube evolution: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2254103

Re: What's a good "second 3D printer" to print?

Define your expectations and budget for your second printer first. Do you want just your current MK3 replica or some kind of enhancement to your current setup? Like more build volume, dual/quad extrusion, faster prints, special materials ....

Based on your expectations and budget you would get better hints here.

Re: What's a good "second 3D printer" to print?

Prusa is my first 3D printer and I've enjoyed learning on it. Instantly I've had projects that have been set aside because they are too big for the MK3. I finally broke down and bought a CR-10 S5 and will be putting it together this weekend.
I was hoping PRUSA would come out with a larger printer, I would have waited. After talking to online chat I learned it will be awhile before Prusa comes out with a large printer.

Re: What's a good "second 3D printer" to print?

I have brought a Ender 3, they are very cheap, and now i'm upgrading and fine tuning. Already installed volcano. Great printer for the money with small amount you can turn that printer into a 1000 € class printer

Re: What's a good "second 3D printer" to print?

Build an i3 MK2 from scratch.

Tom S. did a guide on building the cheapest possible i3 mk2 clone from scratch.
https://toms3d.org/2017/02/23/building-cheapest-possible-prusa-i3-mk2/

Re: What's a good "second 3D printer" to print?

CR10S variants seem to be picking up lots of steam and are a good choice behind the Prusas.

Huge build volume, a good bowden setup, and thingiverse is chock full of modifications for it.

But i'd prefer a Voron CoreXY V2 build, no moving bed an the thing can bi sized up and it's bloody fast.
more here https://www.reddit.com/r/voroncorexy/

The Voron V2 is on my to do list. I'll start compiling parts as soon as a complete design is up, or as soon as I feel I know enough to hack my way through everything or until I get bored and need a project, whichever comes first.

Re: What's a good "second 3D printer" to print?

I have brought a Ender 3, they are very cheap, and now i'm upgrading and fine tuning. Already installed volcano. Great printer for the money with small amount you can turn that printer into a 1000 € class printer

How does the print quality compare to a Prusa I3? I am concerned that the v-groove wheel design might be more wobbly than linear bearings. I will say, though, that the Ender price looks hard to beat for a metal framed kit.

Strangely, it seems like almost none of the 3D printers (except for Cetus and a few otherwise unremarkable outliers) use linear rails. Is it just a cost issue, or are there other reasons?

Re: What's a good "second 3D printer" to print?

I have brought a Ender 3, they are very cheap, and now i'm upgrading and fine tuning. Already installed volcano. Great printer for the money with small amount you can turn that printer into a 1000 € class printer

How does the print quality compare to a Prusa I3? I am concerned that the v-groove wheel design might be more wobbly than linear bearings. I will say, though, that the Ender price looks hard to beat for a metal framed kit.

Strangely, it seems like almost none of the 3D printers (except for Cetus and a few otherwise unremarkable outliers) use linear rails. Is it just a cost issue, or are there other reasons?

Well you can't compare them because it's a 160 eur VS 770 eur Printer, but as i said with some upgrades it can be as good as the MK3 with small money.
Frame is good and you need to tune it, some units don't come well built so never trust and do your checks before assembly. wobbly part is easy to fix, just take your time to inspect and adjust.
Quality wise it's very good out of the box you can read many reviews on the Internet, there are people printing minis with great detail and also big models with no problem. The most anoying part for new users are the no automatic bed level, and its hard to find a perfect balance, but this is easy fixed with a probe.

So what i recommend:

1) Upgrade v wheels to Extreme v wheels made of PC from Openbuilds (Can be found on aliexpress)
2) Print some Ender 3 mods to complete and improve the printer (See my collection here: https://www.thingiverse.com/sn4k3/collections/creality-ender-3 )
3) After get used to the machine upgrade the hotend for a V6 with volcano, buy the one i have inspected it work very good and perfect.
4) Buy EZABL or BLTouch for auto level
5) Buy motor smooth boards (Optional) if you dont go 6)
6) Upgrade to MKS Gen L with TMC drivers (Optional) and a filament sensor
7) If you feel that way upgrade extruder and use direct drive maybe. (Optional)
8) Buy flexplate

With all that mods you have a printer just as good or better than a prusa mk3 and much cheaper
The only bad part is the lack of dual Z, but is not that critical since you can make it horizontal with some adjusts but in the end is a dam of a value for such printer

Re: What's a good "second 3D printer" to print?

...
So what i recommend:

1) Upgrade v wheels to Extreme v wheels made of PC from Openbuilds (Can be found on aliexpress)
2) Print some Ender 3 mods to complete and improve the printer (See my collection here: https://www.thingiverse.com/sn4k3/collections/creality-ender-3 )
3) After get used to the machine upgrade the hotend for a V6 with volcano, buy the one i have inspected it work very good and perfect.
4) Buy EZABL or BLTouch for auto level
5) Buy motor smooth boards (Optional) if you dont go 6)
6) Upgrade to MKS Gen L with TMC drivers (Optional) and a filament sensor
7) If you feel that way upgrade extruder and use direct drive maybe. (Optional)
8) Buy flexplate
...

Is there anything left from original Ender 3? It sounds to me like "buy a frame and build your own printer"

BTW, I don't trust all the "great reviews" anymore. Behind the phrases "Just need to tune in" and "small adjustments" are lying hundred of hours work, tinkering and money for the replacement parts. Personally I don't buy a printer to build a better printer. I buy a printer because I want to use it making other stuff.

Re: What's a good "second 3D printer" to print?

2) Print some Ender 3 mods to complete and improve the printer (See my collection here: https://www.thingiverse.com/sn4k3/collections/creality-ender-3 )

I count 55 mods in your collection, which is a bit daunting to ponder all at once. Which would you consider to be the most essential?

Re: What's a good "second 3D printer" to print?

Is there anything left from original Ender 3? It sounds to me like "buy a frame and build your own printer"

Pretty much 😀 The motors, rods, frame, metal parts, extruder, tube, lcd, board, and others.
The deal is, you will spend more money buying yourself the frame, metal parts, screws, motors, and all other included parts that you require. For 160 euros you can't buy what this printer deliver you, also you can't buy all from same seller, which will cost you money on postage.

BTW, I don't trust all the "great reviews" anymore. Behind the phrases "Just need to tune in" and "small adjustments" are lying hundred of hours work, tinkering and money for the replacement parts. Personally I don't buy a printer to build a better printer. I buy a printer because I want to use it making other stuff.

All the hype from Ender3 come from Ender2, you shouldn't belive reviews like they are god or something, like me i like to try myself, that way i can tell you that reviews are correct, for the price you can't get any better, and stock print quality is amazing.
When i print the first model that come on sdcard i cant belive the quality for the price, it print a perfect model without inperfection but i got some luck because i don't perform any hard ajustments, just level the bed with a paper and it come good at first try, but as i said i got luck this time.
I can post some objects that i have printed...
This is not about buy to modify, my tip is modify as you need or want, try the machine first and if you fell a need to upgrade do it.
As i also said stock printer is hard to calibrate, the most dificult part is bed, but that is easy solved with a probe. Frame wise is also easy, just do it in the assembly time, but this can be complicated for a new user or someone who never required to trame a printer.

Ender 3 also got a very good comunity on facebook, you ask someone will help you in seconds, feedback there are from real users, no affiliates and from what i see all the problems come from bad ajustments or new people trying to figure out how to do it right.
Software wise is also tricky, i setup a Slic3r PE profile that can be use as plug and play

So in the end let me tell you if you want to keep stock (not modify)

Downsides:
- Hard to calibrate bed, but once you cath the point it will be easier
- Frame, wheels must be ajusted for square and tight fit the slots
- No dual Z
- No auto bed level
- Firmware must be upgraded to get protection and z offset
- You must calibrate your e-steps first time (very simple to perform not really a downside)

Upsides:
- Very good quality for the price, produce same detail as MK3 at a lower layer height 0.05mm and 0.10mm
- Semi assembled
- Bed adhesion is very strong, you have to use a tool to deatch simple PLA object, but excessive force can mess with your calibration
- Include tools and spares

Re: What's a good "second 3D printer" to print?

2) Print some Ender 3 mods to complete and improve the printer (See my collection here: https://www.thingiverse.com/sn4k3/collections/creality-ender-3 )

I count 55 mods in your collection, which is a bit daunting to ponder all at once. Which would you consider to be the most essential?

I have collected all mods i saw for ender 3, that don't mean i have them all, most are duplicates.
The best mods are:

1) Fan shroud
2) Z Mount
3) Filament Guide

All others are small improvement, just use what you fell like

All mods and printer modification can be made just in one day of work

Printer group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/Ender3/?fref=nf
If you want to read other real person problems, solutions, etc.

I have uploaded some pictures of prints made with my stock ender 3, not the best image quality but...
The Vase was print with 0.3mm layer height, the left small vase was printed with MK3 and the right vase is ender made.
The dog is all perfect, cant notice any imperfection, the layers are so good that is hard to see them, so i guess the layer height is 0.1mm, file come at sdcard already sliced and ready as print demo

Re: What's a good "second 3D printer" to print?

@tiago.c:
I'm impressed! Thanks for sharing all that you posted. Your photos seems to prove that wheels are no worse than linear bearings, which was my most significant concern. You make a very compelling case I would say.

I'm glad to see that there' is strong competition, because that's what pushes things forward. 😀

Re: What's a good "second 3D printer" to print?

The images are way too blurry. You can't really see the quality of the prints. It will be great if you could make the layer visible.
Especially on the vase I think I can see many imperfections.
This dog is also very easy thing for a printer. Try the Maker Muse easter egg 😀
https://gumroad.com/l/wLcbJ

Don't get me wrong. I like the fact that you can get nowadays printer for $200 which are actually print almost out of the box. But I'm also trying to make clear to people that there is a difference between $200 printer and $800. And it's not only the cost difference.

Re: What's a good "second 3D printer" to print?

@tiago.c:
I'm impressed! Thanks for sharing all that you posted. Your photos seems to prove that wheels are no worse than linear bearings, which was my most significant concern. You make a very compelling case I would say.

I'm glad to see that there' is strong competition, because that's what pushes things forward. 😀

Linear bearings can be a pain if you use bad designs or bad aligment, as everything else to work it need to be perfect tuned, so use wheels are not worse, it just need to be well made and tune. I heavy recommend PC V Wheels to replace the stocks one.
There are people moding ender 3 bed to put it on a linear rail or bearings, but it's a hard mod and not bring you a big advantage over the stock, you just need to tune, the Y axis is the most problematic with this printer.
X axis you only need to ensure it's horizontal
and Z axis you need to print the Z Holder to make it perfect, the included Z motor holder it's very bad.

Read the facebook group you will find lot of information about this printers.
Also there are a new CR20 printer, a ender 3 clone but with flexplate and a AIO construction, don't worth the 350 eur compared with ender 3 just because the flexplate system. With less than that price difference you put all mods i say before on the Ender 3.

The images are way too blurry. You can't really see the quality of the prints. It will be great if you could make the layer visible.
Especially on the vase I think I can see many imperfections.
This dog is also very easy thing for a printer. Try the Maker Muse easter egg 😀
https://gumroad.com/l/wLcbJ

Yes images sucks, i took that with my crappy smartphone, filament color don't help either.
Dog is perfect. Vase have small imperfections on bottom part (20%) due Z, then i ajusted Z offset while printing and fix that small bumps and come just like the MK3 vase, still a pretty simple object.

I would be happy to print that object and show but i think right now would not be fair, because i've all mods that i said off, my Ender3 is not a Ender3 anymore.

Right now my ender3 have:

- Extreme V Wheels from openbuilds
- Bed flat springs from CR10
- Nuts securing bed screws to prevent them to rotate
- Filament Arm
- Filament Z Guide
- Cable Clips on extrusions
- LCD Cover
- Extruder motor shaft cover
- Better PTFE Tube
- Squash ball feets
- NEMA dampers
- Special bed made for Ender 3, objects pop off when cool down, no need to scrape
- Added Y Idler to make belt horizontal like CR10 use
- Control box cover
- Z Motor Holder with a cable holder
- Rpi 3 with a buck converter
- BLTouch
- V6 + Volcano
- CR10 Modular Volcano Mod with three fans
- Motor Smooth+protection modules
(Using original motherboard, but i have a MKS Gen L on stock with TMC drivers :D)

i think i'm not missing a part but for now that is what come to my memory.
Most of the mods are useless for the printer good but they are nices to have, most of the parts are almost cost free (printed parts), what will make expensive is the V6+volcano if you go original, Extreme V Wheels, BLTouch and RPi3, other parts are like given.

Don't get me wrong. I like the fact that you can get nowadays printer for $200 which are actually print almost out of the box. But I'm also trying to make clear to people that there is a difference between $200 printer and $800. And it's not only the cost difference.

There is a difference out of the box, MK3 is a superior machine for sure and i love it, but if you think about upgrade the ender 3, you can match the MK3 with small amount, everything MK3 have you can have on ender3 less the Dual Z, and you will spare a lot of money on the process but also waste very time. So people should go the route they like more. The deal is, with the price of a mk3 kit you can have 4 x Enders 3 and some spare money. I think that worth more for people who need horse power. For people who need one best printer out of the box, sure MK3 wins.

Now let me say other thing, price is not always a factor of better or worse. Nowadays i'm seeing stuff that is breaking my way of thinking, i will give TS100 as example, a soldering iron. Man i can't belive the reviews, so i buy one for myself to try, and for 45€ i'm amazed with performance. I have a professional station (ERSA i-con 2V) that cost me arround 700 euros, and performance from i-tool to TS100 are not that different, in fact the smaller tips like TS-ILS are much better than the ersa ones, the heat performance and thermal recovery are almost identical, 74W VS 150W still it can do all jobs. Of course you will notice a difference in other aspects, like the handle feel, the ergonomics, the look and on high power requirement like huge planes that need lot of heat. If you take all that TS100 match a tool that cost 200 euros at thier lower tier station.
So price is not always a factor of better, sometimes we pay for useless details but whatever, see iPhone example, you are not paying for the hardware, because the hardware was always outdated in terms of cpu or ram, they released new models with dual core when hexa or more core already exists on market much time ago but you pay like a gold holder. Their excuse: We don't need more cores or ram because apps are very good optimized and don't need more, so yeah!
That is not to say ender 3 is better, it's just a general observation.
So why not give it a try, 160€ is not the same as pay 1000€, if you regret the loss is minimal and not hard to sell it.

I'm owner of MK2S KIT, MK3 KIT and now ender 3.

MK2S was a perfect experience for me, 0 problems beside bed which i fix with hyperlevel calibration.
MK3 was only problems out of the box, hard to get a good first layer on earlier firmwares, i had to re print all parts (R2), the use of bad parts make my Z threaded rod bent, belt deformed/bent, belt dust, Y squeaking, pinda probe broke two times, Crash detection make layer shift, power panic don't work well, filament sensor make more problem than benefit, so all smart features are off on my printer. That is what i got from a "high end" 780€ printer. The features i love more on mk3 are the spring sheet and the new drivers, all the rest are like MK2s
Ender 3, very positive experience and surprise, not a single problem out of the box, very easy to take apart each axis, very easy to mod.

Don't get me wrong i love the MK3, and after heavy modding (yes my mk3 is not a mk3 anymore too 😀 ) i solved all my problems, but that should not be required for a printer at this price point, i understand they have fixed almost all problems by now but still is bad to get a product like that.
In the end i waste much more time and money trying to fix the Mk3 then upgrading Ender3.

Before i order a Ender3 i have done a good and deep investigation on other solutions and i can't get better than this for the price, my objective was buy a printer to heavy modify, that ender 3 fit the bill perfectly. All the hype on Ender2 is now on Ender3.
CR10s was a strong candidate too and a best printer because Dual Z and high volume but price is also lot higher, so i opt of ender3.
My second objective is have two printers, one for detail (MK3 + 0.6mm nozzle) and one for fast and bulk prints (Ender3 + Volcano 0.8mm nozzle)

Again visit ender 3 facebook group, see what people are posting, printing, etc. And don't be sceptical just because is a cheap product, it really can surprise you.

Ender4 also exists, a Core XY printer for less more than a ender3

Images took from facebook group from random users with ender3 stock:

Re: What's a good "second 3D printer" to print?

It's interesting that you compare MK2S and MK3. There was a reason why MK2S was released ;). The early MK2 owners did replaced also many parts.
For me it was exactly the other way around. I started with an early MK2, had to modify and upgrade to MK2S. I got my MK3 when the firmware 3.2.1 was released and with v2 parts. It was much better experience with MK3 then my early MK2.

Anyway I understand the thrill to buy a cheap printer and upgrade it to something better. That's why I initially asked the OP to define his goals on the second printer. Nowadays there are so many options where you can pump your time and money in.

Just want to mention you could be lucky and get those kind of nice prints. But you could also be one of the guys with strange moire, artefacts, extrusion issues. Ending up changing everything and still get garbage prints. You should be aware of the risk of that journey.

Re: What's a good "second 3D printer" to print?

Don't get me wrong i love the MK3, and after heavy modding (yes my mk3 is not a mk3 anymore too 😀 ) i solved all my problems...

Aside from having to reprint all the MK3 parts so that you'd have R2 parts, what other worthwhile mods to the MK3 did you make? So far the only mod I've made to my MK3 has been upgrading to a micro swiss heat break and then a standard Volcano to get faster print speeds. I'm very glad I did. Presently I can print at 150mm/sec (or 175mm/sec draft mode), which I feel is a significant improvement. I'll probably upgrade to a 350 watt power supply and an all copper volcano with 40w heater cartridge soon. I may later be upgrading the MK3 to either a skelestruder or a Titan Aero to (hopefully) get even faster print speeds still, but the mods needed to do that are still beta at this time.