RE: Prusa MK3S+ vs Bambu Lab X1 carbon
Look how long it took them to get Prusa Connect integrated into the Mini (& MK3)
To be precise. Yes, there's an implementation of PrusaLink—the local host software—on the Mini, so you can open an HTTP session to it and interact with it, and you can send print files from Prusaslicer. But PrusaConnect—the cloud software that lets you connect multiple printers at the same time and host print files in the cloud—does not support the Mini, which renders it a lot less useful for mixed farms like my own.
I don't really know anymore what's going on. The whole PrusaConnect effort feels so unfocused and not resourced properly. To come up with something that can successfully compete with Octoprint, you need more than what looks like a team of two that can only produce minor updates in way too much time needed. Still no multi-file selection, no folders in cloud storage, all table stakes at this time. But then they recently added a new camera feature. I was quite excited but turns out that apparently you can only use an old iPhone or similar device as a camera. Huh?
Formerly known on this forum as @fuchsr -- until all hell broke loose with the forum software...
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While I am super happy I went with the Prusa MK3+ for my first printer, I've been following Prusa's other products somewhat closely. I think they've really shot themselves in the foot with the XL and the huge time delay. That will hurt them. I looked at the MMU2's problem with the +5v design flaw and it seems pretty unforgiveable they haven't had a timely update that doesn't force people to add their own regulator. From what I read (zero experience), it seems that the AMS unit of Bamboo is more reliable than Prusa's MMU. They should have had a solid OctoPrint type of interface years ago. It doesn't need all the bells and whistles. Start with basic connectivity and ensure it can handle multiple printers.... then any standard USB camera... If Prusa designs the software properly, then Prusa can add their own plugins and assign them to different software individuals.. even get the community involved.. Prusa should build the framework and let others help.. similar to what OctoPrint has done.. They've focused too much on a custom (likely ad-hoc) product for their farms.. and while their customers have farms.. surely most are individuals who need single printer features.. .. And you are right.. they seem short on really skilled resources for electronic design and software. The Prusa Slicer has been solid for me. I think the whole Printables is great, but I fear it is distracting them from their bread and butter. Even their latest videos seem to show a lack of hardware design focus; which to me, is where all their revenue comes from. (Prusament can't compete with other filaments in Canada).
RE: Prusa MK3S+ vs Bambu Lab X1 carbon
I have two MK3S+ printers and they have performed very well for me over the past 2 years but I recently (last 2 weeks) bought a Bambu X1-Carbon and it is in a completely different league to the MK3S+. It is incredibly fast, with excellent print quality, reliable first layer every time and an up to date interface.
A print on the MK3S+ which takes 17 hours is completed on the X1-Carbon in 6 hours and with better quality. It's possible that with much tweaking I could get similar quality from the MK3S+ but I didn't have to do any tweaking on the X1-Carbon, it worked straight out of the box.
Prusa will become the Blackberry or Nokia of 3D printing if they don't up their game and make the huge leap forward that Bambu have achieved.
Some will say that Bambu are too new to the market and maybe can't be trusted to stay for the long haul, but if they don't, someone else will take up where they left off and the looser will be Prusa. "If you're not truly innovating, you're failing".
In general I agree. Comparison with cell phones might be right but. There is one huge but. It is connected to the following question. Where is the innovation? Yes, they added laser scanner for the 1st layer print and feather light bridge and carriage. What else what is not present with other open source projects like Voron or Prusa?
What I see, is an excellent compilation of existing know how to a nice looking and well performing package. Exactly as users want to see it. I have to admit that they did it well. In analogy to the cell phones. Nokia had smart phones years before apple and Android. Just few understood how and why to use them. Them Apple came to the game right time, compiled everything into a nice package with a capacitance display, added the app store and won.
Prusa should change their attitude and understand that nice box, large display, all in one does matter in certain markets. On other hand a Chinese company is always a tough competitor. They have almost everything by their hand and much weaker labor law as well as minimal intellectual property enforcement.
I am crossing my fingers to Prusa, make certain inevitable changes and put all into a competitive mass product.
And for now? Buy whatever suits more your needs and or consider who should / want you support with the purchase. I've got 2 Prusa printers, waiting for the 3rd one which has been delayed many times and kinda becoming obsolete the XL. I doubt that XL is going to be as fast as Bambu lab's X1. Carriage design is little "excentric" and heavy with a heavy bridge. (how can you move it with high acceleration?) It won't be able to accelerate as fast a feather light on X1. However I am still waiting, because I'd like to add a chance to Prusa who brought me to the 3d printing world, hoping that they will catch up and XL is going to be a good printer.
RE: Prusa MK3S+ vs Bambu Lab X1 carbon
I have 1 mini and 2 mk3s+ and one with an mmu2s.
so far this bambu lab x1c with ams is the only one I have running. It’s so fast, better quality prints and I can rely on the multi material system. I’m sure once the honeymoon is over, my prusas will get some use, but it’s just way to easy to use the bambu. Part of me what’s to see the prusas. I won’t because they still have use. The only question left to answer is the longevity of the x1c. I can see parts breaking for sure.
RE: Prusa MK3S+ vs Bambu Lab X1 carbon
Personally, I'm more interested in speed, print quality and first layer reliability. Open source is of little benefit to me.
I've been a fan of Prusa since I bought my first one and even bought a Prusa Mini after my X1C for my kids but I use the printers in a work setting so having something that works out of the box is more important. Time will tell whether it is as reliable but I'm looking forward to finding out.
Prusa started and continue to operate as an open source company but they are now a large company with all the responsibilities of such. They need to communicate better and innovative a hell of a lot more.
I also have reserved an XL in November 2021 but I'm not sure I could justify purchasing it when/if it ever becomes available as from what I've seen, it's slow and already out of date. I hope I'm wrong.
I'd prefer to support a local company like Prusa but they can't keep throwing 5+ year old technology out as something new. The XL might have been a leap forward if it came out in 2021 or early 2022 but too long is too late.
Let's hope they have something excellent up their sleeves for the MK4. If not, I fear they could end up going the way of the Dodo.
RE: Prusa MK3S+ vs Bambu Lab X1 carbon
Where is the innovation? Yes, they added laser scanner for the 1st layer print and feather light bridge and carriage. What else what is not present with other open source projects like Voron or Prusa?
Innovation is not only "revolution" but also "evolution". What Bambulab did IS certainly innovation. All competitors have to catch up, otherweise they won't survive! Most technologies are already available somewhere else. Innovation can be to take existing technologies from other fields and change it's own industry! That is exactly what Bambulab did!
RE: Prusa MK3S+ vs Bambu Lab X1 carbon
Innovation is not only "revolution" but also "evolution". What Bambulab did IS certainly innovation. All competitors have to catch up, otherweise they won't survive! Most technologies are already available somewhere else. Innovation can be to take existing technologies from other fields and change it's own industry! That is exactly what Bambulab did!
I kinda agree, others are behind. Non of them was really working on a mass product meant for ordinary people. They with daily work build a huge base of fans. Opened the world of 3d printing to them. Now demand is much higher and it needed a new solution and voila!
OK, if you want, let's call it innovation. I call it a good amount of excellent engineering work and make it real consumer market ready.
Many of 3d community members did they own part. Put they time and idea into it for good of the public without a real way to protect they work at least on the level of a small ask. "Use my addition but, open yours too to propel future innovation." In many cases it is not really happening yet. What I see, in the software industry too is withdrawal of many successful opensource project into the proprietary, closed world. It will come with 3d printing too because of fierce competition.
For example https://www.obico.io/the-spaghetti-detective.html, came with idea to use https://pjreddie.com/darknet/yolo/. Issue there is the training data so let's integrate it to octoprint. Product of a huge pile of annotated "spaghetti image" and then a matrix. Inference mechanism then can be anywhere. Moving it from Octoprint's plugin to the printer itself is in my eyes an evolution not innovation, sorry.
I don't won't to downplay Bambulab's achievement. They delivered a great machine and a huge portion of smart engineering work. All competitors should wake up and bring a mass market product to the market.
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Prusa’s MK3 came out over 5 years ago, with a minor update to the MK3+. That is eons in the tech world. While the Mini came out after, it didn’t address the whole ‘prosumer’ home user that wanted a larger build plate and the most reliability. I think Prusa’s quality is largely attributed to the extensive experience they get from their print farm. I’m not sure they produce great designs “out of the box”. They really rely on experience and iteration. The MMU comes to mind as I read the comments on here. So they are going to need a few iterations for any new design. Perhaps this is some of the delay issues with the XL. The Raspberry PI use for a communication module should be scrapped. I don’t think one wants to bet a product on that availability. Certainly Bamboo is not going to be without issues. Fast speed bring resonance issues that will need to be overcome. But their lead in that field is now significant and their customer support seems good. Voron and RatRig designs can’t be executed by the majority of the 3D Printer users, so Bamboo & others will need to provide a more plug-and-play solution. Even if Prusa came out with a core XY this year.. (which seems near impossible), I wonder if they could execute as well as Bamboo has done now. Creality is now creating their own Core XY with enclosures, so the field is quickly bypassing Prusa. I think it will be a challenging 5 years ahead for Prusa.
RE: Prusa MK3S+ vs Bambu Lab X1 carbon
Prusa should be rethinking the XL since the Bambu, and even the Voron is starting to enter the market. That is what I would be having my engineers, PMs, and sourcing managers working on 90% of the time. But face it, every Voron and Bambu customer is a lost customer for Prusa. Ultimately, consumers, educators, and small businesses are looking to get more for their money. Right now, Bambu and the Bambu can fill the needs of some who want a product to work out of the box and focus on what it can make, and the other, the Voron, can satisfy the tinkerer. Don't get me wrong, and I love my MK3S+. I even added a Bondtech LGX Shortcut Mosquito to it over my Railcore 2. I love to build and tinker, but more and more, I find myself just wanting to design, print, and utilize functional parts. Currently, I am in the market for a 3rd printer, and the Bambu Carbon X1 and Voron are the only contenders. I would like to see what the Czech engineers at Prusa come up with for the XL (or other) competitive product.
RE: Prusa MK3S+ vs Bambu Lab X1 carbon
My P1P arrived today and I'm super impressed with the print speed and quality. I never thought I'd buy a non-Prusa printer (I have a Mini and MK3S+) but I got tired of waiting for the MK4. Assuming the P1P holds up over time, I think Prusa may be in trouble.
RE: Prusa MK3S+ vs Bambu Lab X1 carbon
I get that everyone wants speed, speed, speed but what if you want maximized physical properties? For some of us looks aren't everything. I need a decent print but also need maximum physical properties for what we do. I've seen data from actual testing labs that show the max is achieved at about 45mm/sec. So, guess where I'm printing at! I also work in a fairly remote area and we have one non Prusa closed source printer. Never again. Closed source for some of us is a complete non starter. It takes me long enough to get a part in from a USA warehouse, coming from Asia would be really a stretch. I get the desire for new tech and flashy features but don't forget there is a segment out here that uses these as tools in serious settings and our priorities are very different from most hobyists and YouTube reviewers. Now, show me actual testing lab data (Not an opinion on YouTube) that shows they are achieving maximum properties at high speed and the machines run thousands of hours trouble free with parts available quickly for someone with a long supply line and I might get interested but right now the Prusa is still the answer for some of us.
RE: Prusa MK3S+ vs Bambu Lab X1 carbon
If I would use the printer commercially, most important would be to have a reliable partner. While I see that Bambulab has to prove that, I don‘t see an advantage of open source hardware. Open source and high tech is smoething which (beside of software) does not really work together.
If you have a fast printer, you don‘t have any disadvantage. You can allways print slower!
RE: Prusa MK3S+ vs Bambu Lab X1 carbon
I get that everyone wants speed, speed, speed but what if you want maximized physical properties? For some of us looks aren't everything. I need a decent print but also need maximum physical properties for what we do. I've seen data from actual testing labs that show the max is achieved at about 45mm/sec. So, guess where I'm printing at! I also work in a fairly remote area and we have one non Prusa closed source printer. Never again. Closed source for some of us is a complete non starter. It takes me long enough to get a part in from a USA warehouse, coming from Asia would be really a stretch. I get the desire for new tech and flashy features but don't forget there is a segment out here that uses these as tools in serious settings and our priorities are very different from most hobyists and YouTube reviewers. Now, show me actual testing lab data (Not an opinion on YouTube) that shows they are achieving maximum properties at high speed and the machines run thousands of hours trouble free with parts available quickly for someone with a long supply line and I might get interested but right now the Prusa is still the answer for some of us.
Your use case and requirements seems to be very niche and Prusa will probably be the better option for you but for Prusa to compete and survive it will need to step up to the challenge set by Bambu and others who are making similar leaps otherwise they could lose a huge portion of their customer base. In my case I would never have thought of using anything else but Prusa a year ago but I now have an X1C, will be ordering another X1C soon and will probably sell or retire the MK3's. I reserved an XL in November 2021 but I don't think I'll be taking them up on that if it ever arrives.
RE: Prusa MK3S+ vs Bambu Lab X1 carbon
I have officially retired and now have a new career I hadn't planned on involving 3D Printing. In the past it was heavily involved in CNC equipment. The same was true there. There were technological wonders that had single part sources. The operators seemed to spend too much downtime because of single source issues. I was running less sophisticated equipment but we were up, producing and meeting contracts. 14 years on one piece of gear and it was only down twice. Each time for two days. Open source for all but the mother board.
What is the point of spending a bunch of money on capacity I will not be using? From a business point of view that is a bad investment. A quick way to be out of business.
I realize I'm something of an unusual case but I'm producing serious gear in a remote third world location. If my sole source is going to be shipping me parts from Asia then my down time is going to be a serious issue. When I can get it out of the states it's still 10 days or so but that is bad enough. Show me that your closed source equipment has an average operating time of 5000 hours between service and maybe I'll look at it but also have to consider supply chain issues like shipping disruptions. For a Prusa it's bad enough but for Asian source my experience has been highly negative.
Cutting edge tech CAN seem like the do all end all but decades in manufacturing has left me less than enamored of the latest and greatest. I need uptime and fast turnaround in my location when I'm down!
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As an engineer, I agree that single sourcing is not optimum. But in today’s specialized market it is difficult to avoid. Look at Prusa. I would say that without a Pi and OctoPrint, I would not even think of another Prusa. And this is a single sourced item and look at how that is hurting Prusa now. From comments on the Prusa Mini, I see lots of issues trying to get basic wifi working.. Who would ever think you’d need a USB stick plugged in just to get some memory? In today’s electronics.. So the ‘open source’ of Prusa only goes so far. Look at the walled garden of Apple stuff and you see they’ve done pretty well. It really is about how the company executes.
If Bambu can provide enough reasonably priced parts, and continues to be really reactive to customer support they can be successful. I think the customer support issue is a weakness that I’ve seen in many global industries. Bambu seems to be doing it pretty good out of the gate. But really it is too early to tell.. only time will tell. I don’t think the Anker product has executed as well as Bambu.. at least not yet.
For dimensional accuracy and strength of parts.. as one said.. you can always decide what speed you want to print at to get best layer adhesion. I find that the hotend of the Prusa can be a weak point for service. It is pretty easy to damage a thermistor wire when changing a nozzle (for the uninitiated). In fact in one online distributor here in Canada, the guy didn’t recommend I buy another nozzle cause I’d break the printer.. go figure.. And rethreading the entire cable assembly to replace a heater/fan/thermistor etc. is quite daunting if you’ve bought the fully assembled MK3 and are not mechanically inclined.. I think replaceable nozzles and “Canbus” , or some form of it, is the way to minimize support in the long run..
I love my Prusa MK3+, but some prints have taken 24 hours.. and cutting that to about 8 is quite a game changer, if the quality only suffers marginally. And the whole electronics in the MK3+ needs to be overhauled to provide a decent and reliable communication system that is fast and integrates into their power and thermal management system. Can’t believe they haven’t gotten that done yet. I’d never ever think I would need to shuttle an SD card between my computer & printer in today’s market. (And even though they have their PrusaConnect, getting a Pi is waaayyyy overpriced here.. and it lacks many basic features compared to OctoPI)
RE: Prusa MK3S+ vs Bambu Lab X1 carbon
This is where it's always interesting to see different viewpoints! I get where you guys are coming from but it's decidedly first world thinking and I'm functioning in a somewhat remote third world setting. Octo? Pi/ Wifi? Not here, not happening. Also no cable TV, etc. I'm lucky that I have a hit and miss internet connection. Power is sometimes by mains and sometimes from our boats systems. So.....yes, shuffling by SD card is the standard here! As are many other things you would call outdated but nonetheless we are transforming lives in huge ways! It's like the headaches we are experiencing with a special prosthetic design attempt by an engineering university. They think robotics and aerospace materials. Our recipients can't even get batteries and they want to spec materials that would cost us a fortune to import. They say "But this is cutting edge, new technology, whizz bang, boom!" I have a guy who says if he could just hold his stick for pushing holes in the ground to plant corn it would change his life. I'm trying to get them as engineers to find solutions in an environment outside their life experience. Printing is becoming the same way in some ways. Guess what, the developing world is huge, really huge, but not the first world. Yet the first world will say theirs is all that matters, the only standard. But in truth there are different markets and different needs. In prosthetics the estimated need is 1.5 million worldwide. About 10% will get one in their lifetime. Why? The push in development is it must be robotics, carbon fiber, neurotransmitters, AI, etc. Really neat but completely untenable for the hundreds of thousands who are in desperate need. Those of us trying making a dent in this world and trying to set up reproduceable simple systems to achieve better solutions are met with people telling us but, but, you HAVE to get all the bells, whistles, chrome and options. No, they are actually minuses. Just trying to show that not all the consumers of this equipment share your priorities. Hopefully in the drive to push for more whizz bang people won't ignore those looking for real solutions in a real world that is not as high tech as yours.
RE: Prusa MK3S+ vs Bambu Lab X1 carbon
.. yes.., absolutely, regrettably first world.. I have never experienced what many go through daily, solutions to which I take for granted.
RE: Prusa MK3S+ vs Bambu Lab X1 carbon
Yes, there are other worlds than the first world with completely different problems to solve.
If you live remotley, why don't you store some extra parts or even have a second printer to be fully redundant?
For me it is just ridiculus to blame a new but innovative company to be proprietary. Innovations have to be paid and therefore it is logical, that you want to sell your innovations.
If the company sets a new standard as it seems to be the case for Bambulab right now, there will be a big enough market for other players to enter and sell spare parts.
Currently, Bambulab is selling their spare parts at a very low price. We don't know if it will stay like that, but there will certainly be other companies selling spare parts in the near future. I don't care about the hardware beeing proprietary. For the software it could be a different story, as you are very much dependant on the developers. But look: after I bought the MK3S+ (praised being open source) I realized, that there is no proper solution around for basic connectivity and a display which is appropriate for 2023. One of the most sold printers out there and there is no other solution than using SD cards? Really? To be honest: I prefer a proprietary solution which works to an open source solution which you have to develop yourself. Yes I know there is octoprint and so on. But this is NOT a fully developed solution and you have to mess around with Rasperry PI yourself.
Anyway, I sold my MK3S+ before I even opened it. I got my X1CC, but had no time yet to install it. I'm looking forward to do so on Sunday.
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Ditto. Same experience here exactly. Every print has been perfect, each and every time.
I have two MK3S+ printers and they have performed very well for me over the past 2 years but I recently (last 2 weeks) bought a Bambu X1-Carbon and it is in a completely different league to the MK3S+. It is incredibly fast, with excellent print quality, reliable first layer every time and an up to date interface.
A print on the MK3S+ which takes 17 hours is completed on the X1-Carbon in 6 hours and with better quality. It's possible that with much tweaking I could get similar quality from the MK3S+ but I didn't have to do any tweaking on the X1-Carbon, it worked straight out of the box.
RE: Prusa MK3S+ vs Bambu Lab X1 carbon
@SailorEric I just can't resist… in what part of the world are you and your boat located, if you don't mind asking? Sounds very exciting—and fulfilling.
Formerly known on this forum as @fuchsr -- until all hell broke loose with the forum software...