RE: Prusa MK3S+ vs Bambu Lab X1 carbon
This is an interesting thread.
From what I have learned, if money is the only driver, then the corporation will sell you a product and when you need support, then get your credit card out.
Also, I have learned, that if you take the time and energy to tune a MK3s+, you can get great print speeds and quality. It all takes work and patience. Calibration is key to any system working correctly. in instrumentation, so many items need to be calibrated to give accurate results. I am finding that this is the same for 3D printing. Even simple calibration of my MK3s+ maked changes to the print quality, in my short experience with it. The support available on this forum for the MK3 is very helpful. I don't know if that same help is available on the Bambu forums.
It is interesting to see that their carbon fibre rods are having issues. I have seen comments that people expected issues with them.
RE: Prusa MK3S+ vs Bambu Lab X1 carbon
Are the carbon rods having issues? I haven’t seen any reported issues with the rods. Bambu has been steadily increasing the replacement parts they offer. I think some on this forum jumped to the conclusion that offering a replacement part meant problems. All the way back to the Kickstarter days, Bambu has had potential customers who were nervous because of proprietary parts. A lot of that calmed down when replacement parts became available at reasonable prices.
I do think the X1C will need maintenance over several years of heavy use. Even a Stratasys can need maintenance. Before getting rid of my Stratasys uPrint, I replaced an extrusion tube, cooling fan, and some optical limit sensors.
RE: Prusa MK3S+ vs Bambu Lab X1 carbon
There have been reports on Discord and other locations. I just searched and found several links. None of them specifically indicate why they needed to replace the rods. Either way, carbon rods should last 1000s of hours before they wear unless you have faulty bearings or fail to lubricate.
Are the carbon rods having issues? I haven’t seen any reported issues with the rods. Bambu has been steadily increasing the replacement parts they offer. I think some on this forum jumped to the conclusion that offering a replacement part meant problems. All the way back to the Kickstarter days, Bambu has had potential customers who were nervous because of proprietary parts. A lot of that calmed down when replacement parts became available at reasonable prices.
I do think the X1C will need maintenance over several years of heavy use. Even a Stratasys can need maintenance. Before getting rid of my Stratasys uPrint, I replaced an extrusion tube, cooling fan, and some optical limit sensors.
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Chuck H
3D Printer Review Blog
RE: Prusa MK3S+ vs Bambu Lab X1 carbon
There have been reports on Discord and other locations. I just searched and found several links. None of them specifically indicate why they needed to replace the rods. Either way, carbon rods should last 1000s of hours before they wear unless you have faulty bearings or fail to lubricate.
Additional wear on the carbon rods is probably caused by lack of cleaning when using materials like ABS and that the X1 and X1C are fully enclosed allowing deposits to build up on the rods.
If an active X1C wears through its rods much quicker than a printer using steal rods it could also be that its completing the prints 3 or 4 times quicker.
RE:
I don’t see much wear on my rods. We will see but then again, I am used to doing regular maintenance. My steel metal rods on my several of my Prusas are over 4 years old and no noticeable wear to them. It is amazing what regular lubrication will do.
There have been reports on Discord and other locations. I just searched and found several links. None of them specifically indicate why they needed to replace the rods. Either way, carbon rods should last 1000s of hours before they wear unless you have faulty bearings or fail to lubricate.
Additional wear on the carbon rods is probably caused by lack of cleaning when using materials like ABS and that the X1 and X1C are fully enclosed allowing deposits to build up on the rods.
If an active X1C wears through its rods much quicker than a printer using steal rods it could also be that its completing the prints 3 or 4 times quicker.
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Chuck H
3D Printer Review Blog
RE: Prusa MK3S+ vs Bambu Lab X1 carbon
Don't have a Bambu but find this thread interesting. Carbon fibre rods are a composition of carbon fibres and epoxy. If the wrong type of epoxy is used in production, the enclosure could be causing the surface of the rods to get softer and wear quicker. There are research papers on this issue. Same with the orientation of the carbon fibres for strength. For the rods, random orientation would be best for strength.
Did some searching and found many different posts on issues but nothing pointing to a reason. It looks like the enclosure causes a higher amount of material to be deposited on the rods which could lead to accelerated wear.
From what I have read, I since my MK3 is in an enclosure and in a dusty location, I am going to change the maintenance routine for cleaning and lubricating the rods.
RE: Prusa MK3S+ vs Bambu Lab X1 carbon
If using ABS or ASA, Bambu recommends regular cleaning of the rods. If you look at a Stratasys or the MakerBot Method, the rods are on the other side of the filters and the filters are very large. Then again, the MakerBot Method was 4 times the cost of the X1C, is many times slower, has a much smaller build area and prefers expensive proprietary material. On the plus side, it is a dual extruder machine.
RE:
If using ABS or ASA, Bambu recommends regular cleaning of the rods. If you look at a Stratasys or the MakerBot Method, the rods are on the other side of the filters and the filters are very large. Then again, the MakerBot Method was 4 times the cost of the X1C, is many times slower, has a much smaller build area and prefers expensive proprietary material. On the plus side, it is a dual extruder machine.
Stratasys or the MakerBot Method are professional commercial products meant for industry and not consumer-based products to be used by hobbyists. The support provided by those companies is night and day compared to Bambu. They are slow for a reason. They are made for commercial prototypes that need to be strong. Stratasys is used by a lab that I have visited many times. When they break down, the technician comes to fix them on-site. You will not get that service from Bambu.
The Method printers are made to print engineering-grade products, and some are as strong or stronger than aluminum. The Bsambu cannot do this.
Comparing these products is of no comparison.
As I have repeatedly said in this thread, speed is not everything. It is great if you want to print a trinket or toy that does not need to withstand force, but functional models need strength. For this application, slower is better.
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Chuck H
3D Printer Review Blog
RE: Prusa MK3S+ vs Bambu Lab X1 carbon
Smart decision. I check my rods and bearings once a month and add a little lubrication is needed. It usually needs it every 1-2 months. I have found that the noise drops every time I lubricate.
Don't have a Bambu but find this thread interesting. Carbon fibre rods are a composition of carbon fibres and epoxy. If the wrong type of epoxy is used in production, the enclosure could be causing the surface of the rods to get softer and wear quicker. There are research papers on this issue. Same with the orientation of the carbon fibres for strength. For the rods, random orientation would be best for strength.
Did some searching and found many different posts on issues but nothing pointing to a reason. It looks like the enclosure causes a higher amount of material to be deposited on the rods which could lead to accelerated wear.
From what I have read, I since my MK3 is in an enclosure and in a dusty location, I am going to change the maintenance routine for cleaning and lubricating the rods.
--------------------
Chuck H
3D Printer Review Blog
RE: Prusa MK3S+ vs Bambu Lab X1 carbon
Not interested in purchasing a printer with Closed Source Software.
3D printers are software machines. The software is the MOST important part of it. If you do not have the source code, your right to maintain your equipment is very limited. Without the source code, you can't replace your extruder with a new design. Without access to the software, you may not be able to maintain your printer with Open Sourced parts. You can't run other firmware on a Closed Source Machine, like Marlin, Repetier, or Klipper.
As a retired software engineer, I suspect that Bambu Labs is using Open Sourced software without complying with the licensing agreements in that software. A lot of software engineers have expressed similar concerns about Bambu Labs.
Chris Shaker
RE: Prusa MK3S+ vs Bambu Lab X1 carbon
Bambu Lab X1 Source Files - email [email protected]
"Nice, so we now know they violate again the GPL?
The customers have to be informed by the distributor that they use GPL protected code and if they made changes they are forced to put them under GPL to and publish the source code.
"On the shoulders of giants"
19Sharelevel 2mowciusOP·7 mo. ago
That's a valid point, and one I'd forgotten was a requirement within GPL v2.
I'll raise it with them.
Specifically the wording is:Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three years, to give any third party, for a charge no more than your cost of physically performing source distribution, a complete machine-readable copy of the corresponding source code, to be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange;"
https://www.reddit.com/r/BambuLab/comments/12o4hm3/bambu_lab_x1_source_files_email/
Does Bambu use any open source software in their firmware?
https://forum.bambulab.com/t/does-bambu-use-any-open-source-software-in-their-firmware/9470
Chris Shaker
RE: Prusa MK3S+ vs Bambu Lab X1 carbon
It appears that Bambu Labs definitely does use Open Sourced Software components. But they may have now complied with Open Sourced licensing requirements?
Open Source Software on X1/X1C/X1E
https://wiki.bambulab.com/en/knowledge-sharing/open-source-software
Chris Shaker
RE: Prusa MK3S+ vs Bambu Lab X1 carbon
I will stick with opensource hardware and software for 3D printing and other motion controlled stuff.
It is nice that they have finally met the the license terms.
My next printer will be a 100% home designed and built system. I am seeing some very interesting open source projects for printers, especially mutli material printers.
RE: Prusa MK3S+ vs Bambu Lab X1 carbon
I think it's more hardware than software. The software looks pretty standard except for simple mods to take advantage of their hardware. Bambu's big inovations were in bringing a reliable CoreXY platfom to the prosumer market place. Sure their hardware is proproetery but that's not necessarily a bad thing. My IPhone and Mac are proprietary and Apple has earned my loyalty for making high quality, reliable products.
Bambu's spare parts look reasonably priced and they have a market incentive to make an affordable reliable product. If they can't do this reviews will be bad and people won't buy their products.
There are advantages and disadvantages for both open and closed source products. You have to really first determine your needs and then see what solution satisfies those needs.
RE: Prusa MK3S+ vs Bambu Lab X1 carbon
I'm curious as to what you think would be disadvantages of having Open Sourced Software.
With Closed Source software, you have chosen to live in their walled garden. You get only the features that the company decides that you must have. You get only the bug fixes that they decide you must have. You are entirely at their mercy.
I have purchased one totally closed source printer in the past, a SnapMaker. And I regret it. I also purchased an Flsun V400. The software for the Speederpad is pretty much closed source. But you can replace the Speederpad with a raspberry pi and run standard firmware on the 32 bit Robin board. The Robin board is well documented. You could run Marlin on it, or full standard Klipper on it with a Raspberry Pi. You can even run standard klipper on the Speederpad, it appears.
If there is documentation of the Bambu Labs 3D printer hardware sufficient to port OpenSource software like Klipper to it, feel free to point it out.
Chris Shaker
RE: Prusa MK3S+ vs Bambu Lab X1 carbon
Personally im in favor of opensource software but i dont thing is that importand in the 3d print world. In this forum, for example, we keep complaining (including me) that the new firmware for XL is not bug free etc. We want someone to deliver a working hassle free appliance. I dont thing the majority of 3d printer owners cares to mess with what kind of firmware their device is running no more than any other tool. Why whould i bother if its running klipper or marlin or whatever. I just want something that is efficient, bug free and that it works well. If a brand doesnt offer it i go to another, As i said most of us want the printer to work and we dont want to work on the printer itself. I favor android over ios but that doesnt mean i want to start messing with the OS of my phone or tablet. An Prusa now has to compete with a company that , at least for now, it seems that it gives to the users a product that works out of the box (what i read i dont own a Bambu) no matter if it is closed or open source.
I'm curious as to what you think would be disadvantages of having Open Sourced Software.
With Closed Source software, you have chosen to live in their walled garden. You get only the features that the company decides that you must have. You get only the bug fixes that they decide you must have. You are entirely at their mercy.
I have purchased one totally closed source printer in the past, a SnapMaker. And I regret it. I also purchased an Flsun V400. The software for the Speederpad is pretty much closed source. But you can replace the Speederpad with a raspberry pi and run standard firmware on the 32 bit Robin board. The Robin board is well documented. You could run Marlin on it, or full standard Klipper on it with a Raspberry Pi. You can even run standard klipper on the Speederpad, it appears.
If there is documentation of the Bambu Labs 3D printer hardware sufficient to port OpenSource software like Klipper to it, feel free to point it out.
Chris Shaker
RE: Prusa MK3S+ vs Bambu Lab X1 carbon
Though open source has many advantages, anybody can fork the code and release a version without proper testing. It's up to the community to test vet and review. There is plenty of room for bad code to trickle out to the community. Proprietary application development usually follows a more traditional development cycle and most importantly the manufacturer takes ownership for the version control. I am not saying one philosophy is better than the other. I really liked Creality's approach to release an approved 'offical' supported version and allow community members to develop enhanced/advanced versions for those that needed more bleeding edge features and were willing to take chances with stability. I personally now like to focus on my CAD model development and no longer want to tinker with the appliance. That's the major reason I switched from Creality to Prusa. Prusa just works.
Working with open source for me was a great learning experience but now I just want an applience, when I press the button I want to see my toast pop out after three minutes.
RE: Prusa MK3S+ vs Bambu Lab X1 carbon
Working with open source for me was a great learning experience but now I just want an applience, when I press the button I want to see my toast pop out after three minutes.
I totally agree with that and, just like you, I think that it is absolutely possible for a company to create an open product while maintaining a strong focus on quality in things like the firmware.
My personal reason for preferring open source is that it's more resilient with regard to the fate of the parent company. Companies do sometimes die, and when that's the case, you want a chance to keep the product you bought alive. Open source gives you that chance if there's a sufficiently big and proficient community that will take over.
In the case of Prusa, I'd say that the community and openness are a great thing. I also think that their approach to avoid chaos (the jumper you have to cut which will void your warranty) is sensible. One can, IMHO, say that they struck the perfect balance here and I very much appreciate that.
The sad part is that Prusa, while nailing the openness challenge, seems to have a very bad streak regarding the other half of the equation: Keeping tight control over the core product and ensuring its quality. The firmware 5.1 has been a total unmitigated clusterfuck on my MK4, with problems like frequent bluescreens and the inability to properly self-test a perfectly working Y axis. Without a strictly enforced quality control process, the vendor-led open source model fails and you end up with a low lev el of quality you can't do anything about. In that case, you're actually better off with a closed product that does at least work properly.
I love my MK4, it is a great product. At this point in time, I would not recommend buying it to my friends, though, as Prusa seems to go through a very, very rough patch quality-wise. It really feels like the pressure put on them by Bambu has led to a rushed release of the 32-bit platform and the mechanically complex XL - and Prusa doesn't seem to have the resources to catch up with the issues.
It is totally conceivable that Prusa will manage to get this under control and return to being a company known for extreme reliability. I truly hope that this is what happens. Right now, though, you need a certain willingness to gamble when buying one of their products - and that is NOT what the company stands for in the eyes of the customers.
RE: Prusa MK3S+ vs Bambu Lab X1 carbon
Another issue that potential customers of Bambu Labs need to consider is whether or not they care about data being sent to China.
If they do any defense related work, they had best NOT use their Cloud Printing. Google 'Bambu Labs sending data to China':
Ridiculous lack of security and privacy
https://forum.bambulab.com/t/ridiculous-lack-of-security-and-privacy/1202/13
Bambu Labs Is Sus- China Exploiting You
"level 2mike23544·3 mo. ago
An oddly unrelated google search brought me to this thread, but... Bambu was founded by people from DJI, which the US military has considered a national security threat since at least 2017.
I have nothing to suggest one way or another, other than it's amazing how easily people can dismiss things they don't want to be true.
6ReplySharelevel 2SwervingLemon·3 mo. ago
Necromancy! Attempting to bring life to a 7-months' dead comment:
Short answer to your question: Yes.
Longer Answer: The printers send AES encrypted logs to China nightly and they won't say what's in the files. As an intelligence-gathering tool in the most innovative sectors of manufacturing, it's an invaluable device. Moreover, they receive regular updates that make it even harder to modify or repair the printer without their say-so and without sending logs, and the updates also harden network security. As of 2 firmwares ago, all network traffic is e2e encrypted.
The Spintrol chip it's using for a main processor has a hardware encryption module on-die and enough memory to encrypt all the data in situ. Because of this, I have been unable to intercept the unencrypted data in-transit. It's not impossible, but outside my tooling or skillset.
It could be innocuous information. It could be nMap data and a list of network vulnerabilites, or copies of all the STL's you print. It could be a rickroll.
Unfortunately, there's no way to know.
3ReplyShare"
https://www.reddit.com/r/3Dprinting/comments/10rhg2u/bambu_labs_is_sus_china_exploiting_you/
Chris
RE: Prusa MK3S+ vs Bambu Lab X1 carbon
Yes, I agree. People dismiss the problem with chinese manufacturers and cloud connectivity too easily, IMHO. I personally have a set of VLANs with rather severe restrictions in connectivity for that exact reason - but I would assume that most Bambu customers don't take that kind of precautions.
To be honest: If I would have to buy a printer right now, I would probably not buy a Prusa - but I'd also keep a lot of distance from Bambu for the reasons you mentioned. Still, just as you said, that's something people must decide for themselves.