Goodbye fariwell and peace out  

Re: Goodbye fariwell and peace out

Maybe I would be less upset with "MY" I3 MK3 if support was better. I talked about the replacement parts being out of stock back on in my OP and listed that as one of the reasons I am giving up on this printer. Well back on March 30th I chatted with Support, I confirmed with them that a new set of Bondtech gears would include the tiny grub screw that I lost and could not source locally, (Yes I said I lost it is my fault no one else but me) support was sorry about all the issues I was having with it and promised the "listed as IN STOCK" item would ship ASAP well it is now the tenth and the part is not even listed as packaged. So I contacted them again I was told it will ship Tomorrow.
I still think Prusa was in such a hurry to grab all those pre-orders that they did not have the supply chain and support in place needed to deal with the fall out.
And I still think the loyal customer base should be treated with the same respect as anyone purchasing a new printer.

Re: Goodbye fariwell and peace out

and it is semi-illegal to even BUY a CR10. (Creality is NOT in violation of Chinese law, however they are NOT allowed to sell their products in the USA/EU due to copyrights. As the importer, you are in violation of copyright laws... IF your printer gets snagged by customs, enjoy attempting to get your $$$ back, and also enjoy being on a government watch-list for smugglers...) Enjoy your CR10 guys. It's totally worth it. Why do you think there are NO warehouses with the CR10 in the USA... Just sayin'

Ummm... better rethink that statement. You can get a CR-10 in one day from Amazon, with Prime, in stock. They are absolutely in many places in the US. Customs isn't going to give a rats ass about the CR-10, and I seriously doubt there are any law enforcement officials who are going to pursue this so-called violation at all.

Just gonna leave this link here.
https://www.racked.com/2018/1/8/16849298/amazon-counterfeits-global-entry-customs
Guy got put on a Customs blacklist for ordering a briefcase off amazon. All it takes is the right (wrong?) person to say the right (wrong?) thing.

I'm well aware it's not the same thing, but it is NOT legal to import "gery market" items. (which generally infringe on copyrights/royalty fees) (It would be totally "safe" to buy if it is already in the USA, but you do NOT want your name on it if it's going through customs! as you would be the importer, meaning you "know" what you are buying... Thus making you legally liable.

I was not aware Creality made good by releasing their code. I will not recommend them to anyone however until they "repay their theft/debt". But I could care less about other people recommending it knowing they are obeying the law. (and not stealing from the "community")
(I bought a Prusa, because Prusa LITERALLY supports open source. I mean, he literally does stuff to FUND the open source Marlin devs. (Not in house) Lulzbot does this as well.

PS @ Joseph - When you get your Lulzbot, I hope you enjoy it. It's honestly the only other printer I would get for myself other than a Prusa. 🙂 It's a great printer, and I hope it serves you well.

Re: Goodbye fariwell and peace out

and it is semi-illegal to even BUY a CR10. (Creality is NOT in violation of Chinese law, however they are NOT allowed to sell their products in the USA/EU due to copyrights. As the importer, you are in violation of copyright laws... IF your printer gets snagged by customs, enjoy attempting to get your $$$ back, and also enjoy being on a government watch-list for smugglers...) Enjoy your CR10 guys. It's totally worth it. Why do you think there are NO warehouses with the CR10 in the USA... Just sayin'

Ummm... better rethink that statement. You can get a CR-10 in one day from Amazon, with Prime, in stock. They are absolutely in many places in the US. Customs isn't going to give a rats ass about the CR-10, and I seriously doubt there are any law enforcement officials who are going to pursue this so-called violation at all.

Just gonna leave this link here.
https://www.racked.com/2018/1/8/16849298/amazon-counterfeits-global-entry-customs
Guy got put on a Customs blacklist for ordering a briefcase off amazon. All it takes is the right (wrong?) person to say the right (wrong?) thing.

I'm well aware it's not the same thing, but it is NOT legal to import "gery market" items. (which generally infringe on copyrights/royalty fees) (It would be totally "safe" to buy if it is already in the USA, but you do NOT want your name on it if it's going through customs! as you would be the importer, meaning you "know" what you are buying... Thus making you legally liable.

I was not aware Creality made good by releasing their code. I will not recommend them to anyone however until they "repay their theft/debt". But I could care less about other people recommending it knowing they are obeying the law. (and not stealing from the "community")
(I bought a Prusa, because Prusa LITERALLY supports open source. I mean, he literally does stuff to FUND the open source Marlin devs. (Not in house) Lulzbot does this as well.

PS @ Joseph - When you get your Lulzbot, I hope you enjoy it. It's honestly the only other printer I would get for myself other than a Prusa. 🙂 It's a great printer, and I hope it serves you well.

Not everyone is American and there is nothing illegal about purchasing. Importing is different. The story you linked only said that he wasn't able to get pre approved for fast screening. Which who really cares anyways.

Re: Goodbye fariwell and peace out

Maybe I would be less upset with "MY" I3 MK3 if support was better.

Honestly, with all these elephants flying around in this thread, this would be the biggest one that I can see. I don't think things have been handled that well from PR point of view. While they cannot respond to every single person with every single issue they should be stepping on the issues that have the potential to harm their business. That is just logical business sense, if nothing else.

Re: Goodbye fariwell and peace out

Maybe I would be less upset with "MY" I3 MK3 if support was better. I talked about the replacement parts being out of stock back on in my OP and listed that as one of the reasons I am giving up on this printer. Well back on March 30th I chatted with Support, I confirmed with them that a new set of Bondtech gears would include the tiny grub screw that I lost and could not source locally, (Yes I said I lost it is my fault no one else but me) support was sorry about all the issues I was having with it and promised the "listed as IN STOCK" item would ship ASAP well it is now the tenth and the part is not even listed as packaged. So I contacted them again I was told it will ship Tomorrow.
I still think Prusa was in such a hurry to grab all those pre-orders that they did not have the supply chain and support in place needed to deal with the fall out.
And I still think the loyal customer base should be treated with the same respect as anyone purchasing a new printer.

Checked again today and it is still not listed as shipped not even listed as packaged, at this point I think Support is willing to tell me anything to get me out of their chat.
👿

Re: Goodbye fariwell and peace out

Fair enough, but you could sell it on a "I can't get the bloody thing to work" basis. Then save your dough for the next model. 😉

Trust me there will NOT be a next model Prusa in my home ever!, that boat has sailed and it brunt the bridge on the way out of the harbor.

Re: Goodbye fariwell and peace out

I'm well aware it's not the same thing, but it is NOT legal to import "gery market" items. (which generally infringe on copyrights/royalty fees) (It would be totally "safe" to buy if it is already in the USA, but you do NOT want your name on it if it's going through customs! as you would be the importer, meaning you "know" what you are buying... Thus making you legally liable.

https://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap6.html

602 (a) (3) Exceptions.—This subsection does not apply to—

(B) importation or exportation, for the private use of the importer or exporter and not for distribution, by any person with respect to no more than one copy or phonorecord of any one work at any one time, or by any person arriving from outside the United States or departing from the United States with respect to copies or phonorecords forming part of such person’s personal baggage

Aside from that, if the issue is the firmware, they could very easily just ship the hardware without the firmware loaded on the machine and tell the user to download and flash it themselves. That's essentially what everyone winds up doing anyways to get the latest updates, so this is all just a shell game.

I was not aware Creality made good by releasing their code. I will not recommend them to anyone however until they "repay their theft/debt". But I could care less about other people recommending it knowing they are obeying the law. (and not stealing from the "community")

What exactly is there to "repay"?

The contractual obligation from GPL is essentially to release modifications if they use the code.

If they release the modifications, then the matter is settled. That's it.

Again, what exactly is left to "repay"? What "debt" is left? These are not rhetorical questions. Please elaborate and be specific.

Re: Goodbye fariwell and peace out

What exactly is there to "repay"?

The contractual obligation from GPL is essentially to release modifications if they use the code.

If they release the modifications, then the matter is settled. That's it.

Again, what exactly is left to "repay"? What "debt" is left? These are not rhetorical questions. Please elaborate and be specific.

What is there to repay? The time they were not open source, hindering the development of open source. For example, if Marlin open source devs spent 100 hours, doing something that was already completed by Creality while it was "Closed" and when it was opened, was releaved it was done in redundant, and those 100 hours could have been spent elsewhere.

That would cause 100 hours of "lost" marlin development, which Just becuase most open source devs work for free, does NOT mean they "don't care about thier time".

Most programmers I know of make around 30-50$/hour. Assuming there was ONLY 100 hours of lost time in parody, that is around 3000-5000$ stolen from Marlin.

What if, in a bigger picture....
(I know they don't but let's just laugh and assume they did) Assume the "new" creality CR10's have triniac drivers, and they have perfect extrusion. Prusa has likely lost TENS OF THOUSANDS, if not more because of this bug, and related bugs, and in this "concept" Creality would have essentially GAINED, THOUSANDS of dollars in sales because of this. This is money STOLEN from Prusa, in this example.

The entire open source community of marlin was stolen from, and has been delayed (regardless of how trivial) becuase of this. They should do like Prusa does at MANY shows, and auction printers and DONATE 100% OF THE PROCEEDINGS TO MARLIN. Cause you know. Prusa cares. Lulzbot Cares.

Creality is a leech, and does NOT give/care about the community. Just because of the outcry, and loss of sales from large retailers ceasing sales out of principal, they released their code. This does NOT make them "all good" in my book.

Unless they are willing to "give to the community to repay their theft from the community" I personally will NOT own one, nor recommend one.

Prusa and Lulzbot give to the community EVERY DAY via their open-source firmware development.
Prusa and Lulzbot, give finincial support to the open source development of Marlin.

Creality did not release their firmware's source code freely. They fought the Marlin community, and basically said. "NO, we will NOT release our firmware, as we do NOT have to by chinese law." That's when companies started boycotting them. Just becaue Chinese law does NOT require them to do so, it's a serious JERK move. Spit in the face of all Marlin Devs.

After the community outcry, and drop in sales, they have released their source code. That's nice.
But they still Spit in the face of all Marlin Devs. They did not say "Sorry", they did not say "Sorry about that, we will not do it again." They did not say "Here guys, have a few grand to help improve marlin as a whole."

No, All they said was. "Ok, Ok, fine look, we want to sell these, so all we have to do is release our firmware and we are GOOD!"

Legally, they are "good". But you spit in my face, and then when your sales tank, you change your mind, and release your firmware after a fuss is made... That's not an apology.

EG: If I downloaded a "non-commercial" STL from thingieverse, Had my friends in China mass produce it, and drop-ship it to the USA... How would you feel? It's TOTALLY legal! Then after I made 100,000$ off selling these awesome things, You notice and send me a letter that says "you are in violation of the terms". And I say "No, I'm not. I'm obeying chinese law, but, just becuase I'm nice, I'm gonna stop selling them, and enjoy my new Porche, I bought from the profit from your designs."

^-- How would you feel if that was your STL? And I skirted the law? Would you be happy with that? Would you feel "Square is square!" Just becuase I stopped selling it, when I didn't even have to?

As long as Creality acts like Jerks to the Open source community, REGARDLESS of if they open their source code or not. They have set THEIR OWN TONE. And until they "change it signifigantly" I won't touch them with a 10 foot pole. Regardless of if they are in violation of any laws, or not.

Re: Goodbye fariwell and peace out

What is there to repay? The time they were not open source, hindering the development of open source. For example, if Marlin open source devs spent 100 hours, doing something that was already completed by Creality while it was "Closed" and when it was opened, was releaved it was done in redundant, and those 100 hours could have been spent elsewhere.

That would cause 100 hours of "lost" marlin development, which Just becuase most open source devs work for free, does NOT mean they "don't care about thier time".

Most programmers I know of make around 30-50$/hour. Assuming there was ONLY 100 hours of lost time in parody, that is around 3000-5000$ stolen from Marlin.

That’s not how software development works. That’s not actually even what GPL is about. From FSF themselves:

When we speak of free software, we are referring to freedom, not price. Our General Public Licenses are designed to make sure that you have the freedom to distribute copies of free software (and charge for them if you wish), that you receive source code or can get it if you want it, that you can change the software or use pieces of it in new free programs, and that you know you can do these things.

https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html

Nobody is curtailing your freedom to work on whatever feature if you want to. If you reimplement a feature that should have been opened, I don’t think that can be the basis for damages. I’m not sure I’ve ever heard of anyone making such an argument regarding GPL, ever.

Again, from FSF themselves:

Our primary goal in GPL enforcement is to bring about GPL compliance.

https://www.fsf.org/licensing/enforcement-principles

What if, in a bigger picture....
(I know they don't but let's just laugh and assume they did) Assume the "new" creality CR10's have triniac drivers, and they have perfect extrusion. Prusa has likely lost TENS OF THOUSANDS, if not more because of this bug, and related bugs, and in this "concept" Creality would have essentially GAINED, THOUSANDS of dollars in sales because of this. This is money STOLEN from Prusa, in this example.

Not a part of GPL.

It's kind of hard to argue with "crazy", but I'll give it a shot.

If PR works on some feature and GPL's it, then any other person (including a company) can take it and benefit from it. That's kind of the point. They just take it, straight, no modifications, and straight up use it -- and they can gain thousands of dollars in sales because of this. Or, in your strictly zero-sum-game view of the world, PR I guess loses the same amount in sales, without any violation.

So if they can already do that without violating GPL, how can a GPL violation result in such damages?

If PR is uncomfortable with this situation, which can straight up happen without a license violation, then they need to not use GPL code themselves. This is a daily reality not unique to Prusa, Marlin, Creality, or anybody that does software.

The entire open source community of marlin was stolen from, and has been delayed (regardless of how trivial) becuase of this. They should do like Prusa does at MANY shows, and auction printers and DONATE 100% OF THE PROCEEDINGS TO MARLIN. Cause you know. Prusa cares. Lulzbot Cares.

Not a part of GPL.

Creality is a leech, and does NOT give/care about the community. Just because of the outcry, and loss of sales from large retailers ceasing sales out of principal, they released their code. This does NOT make them "all good" in my book.

This may come as a surprise to you, but caring about the community is not a part of GPL.

Unless they are willing to "give to the community to repay their theft from the community" I personally will NOT own one, nor recommend one.

Prusa and Lulzbot give to the community EVERY DAY via their open-source firmware development.
Prusa and Lulzbot, give finincial support to the open source development of Marlin.

OK that’s your choice, I just wanted to make clear that none of this is part of GPL.

Creality did not release their firmware's source code freely. They fought the Marlin community, and basically said. "NO, we will NOT release our firmware, as we do NOT have to by chinese law." That's when companies started boycotting them. Just becaue Chinese law does NOT require them to do so, it's a serious JERK move. Spit in the face of all Marlin Devs.

After the community outcry, and drop in sales, they have released their source code. That's nice.
But they still Spit in the face of all Marlin Devs. They did not say "Sorry", they did not say "Sorry about that, we will not do it again." They did not say "Here guys, have a few grand to help improve marlin as a whole."

Not a part of GPL. They don’t even seek these things when legal action is taken.

No, All they said was. "Ok, Ok, fine look, we want to sell these, so all we have to do is release our firmware and we are GOOD!"

Legally, they are "good". But you spit in my face, and then when your sales tank, you change your mind, and release your firmware after a fuss is made... That's not an apology.

I’m almost certain that an apology is not required per GPL.

EG: If I downloaded a "non-commercial" STL from thingieverse, Had my friends in China mass produce it, and drop-ship it to the USA... How would you feel? It's TOTALLY legal! Then after I made 100,000$ off selling these awesome things, You notice and send me a letter that says "you are in violation of the terms". And I say "No, I'm not. I'm obeying chinese law, but, just becuase I'm nice, I'm gonna stop selling them, and enjoy my new Porche, I bought from the profit from your designs."

^-- How would you feel if that was your STL? And I skirted the law? Would you be happy with that? Would you feel "Square is square!" Just becuase I stopped selling it, when I didn't even have to?

If I mark an STL with a non-commercial license, and someone violates that, then there might be actual damages arising from that violation because I was reserving commercial usage for myself.

But GPL isn’t an anti-commercial arrangement. Again, please go back and read the FSF materials.

As long as Creality acts like Jerks to the Open source community, REGARDLESS of if they open their source code or not. They have set THEIR OWN TONE. And until they "change it signifigantly" I won't touch them with a 10 foot pole. Regardless of if they are in violation of any laws, or not.

I agree -- companies shouldn’t be jerks to the open source community.

But speaking of tone, your tone is the exact thing that FSF is actively trying to avoid.

So here's some additional information:

Creality's response:

http://www.creality3d.cn/page93?article_id=32

They didn't have the source code at the time. That didn't appear like spitting in the face of the Marlin devs; they literally didn't have the source themselves. It sounds like they hired some of those mythical programmers you speak of to do the work (because, like you, they probably don't actually program themselves).

Naomi Wu went and explained GPL to Creality:

https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg/status/983845961016295424

Given your lack of understanding of GPL, is it reasonable for you to expect anyone else to actually understand GPL?

And then they worked to release the source. That means they actually had to have taken an active role to go to the sub-contractor to get the source released.

The Marlin folks seem to call "square is square".

https://twitter.com/MarlinFirmware/status/983479473810132992

To be clear, I don't even care about Creality. I think their printer designs are bad.

Re: Goodbye fariwell and peace out

snip

Yeah no. I agree 100% as long as they are compliant with the GPL rules, there is 100% zero legal action anyone can take.

And my reference is "community"
You keep missing this key word.

Reprap
Marlin

They are *COMMUNITIES* of people and companies working together, to better 3D printers for ALL.

When Jo auctioned a Mk3, and donated 100% of the proceeds to the Lead Marlin Dev (I think it was the lead, I can't recall the name anymore)
Jo did not *have* to do that by GPL. That is called "Charity" if it was a "handout you don't benefit from personally". Except he does benefit from it. So it's called "Supporting the community".

Jo Supports the community VERY well. Most people may not see how he does it, but I have seen it first hand! It was after I bought my Mk3, but, after seeing that, I have narrowed my options for future 3D printers, and recommendations.

Honestly, I am slighly disapointed in my Mk3. I was Expecting Mk2s x2 quality.

Not Mk2s x0.5 quality.

*MOST* of my issues are firmware related and "easily" fixed by a software update.
ONE specific issue, is 100% unfixable, and is a EXTREMELY major rebuild to the extruder assembly.
My first "major" project, is actually STILL on hold... I think I may get to it this weekend, or next week... finally...
It only took JLTX's 3.5:1 total extruder rebuild to fix that MAJOR problem. (90a TPU... It's more wiley than Ninjaflex... I would get more, but unlike many people here, my mk3, was a "6 months of spending money purchase". a 30-50$ spool of filament feels like pulling teeth. (That's why I print with 11$/kg spools of dirt-cheap-trash... until I can get better filaments over time)

My point is.
Prusa Supports the "community"
Lulzbot Supports the "community"
There are others as well, they are just the big two for Marlin, which I am invested in, after buying a Mk3.

Any company that competes finincally with Prusa, or Lulzbot,. (meaning reducing their sales) (And not giving back to the community in a similar method)
Hurts me personally.

If I say. "John, Go buy a Lulzbot." Some of that money will go to developing features that might end up on MY Prusa printer I already own!
If I say. "John, Go buy a ______ non-GPL compliant marlin based printer." (I am not going to say Creality, as it appears they are playing nice for now!) That money is 100% lost to some wealthy invester, who does NOT support the marlin community.

The _____ non-GPL compliant printer company's printer, is a VERY bad investment for both the actual purchaser, AND community. They don't help improve any printers, other than their own. This may sound good, but it ends up being bad. Their firmware becomes a "branch" and not a "fork" meaning, they fail to get the "updates" from the community, and with a community the size of Marlin, You want to stay "close" to the original Marlin code! So that means that over time, the "non-GPL printer" even IF the company has VERY good development, falls behind the rest of the Marlin community. This is bad for the owner of the printer. And this is bad for the community in more than one way.

It's not about the "law". It's about "How to support the community." And just do "What's right."

PS: Chinese trademark law is amazing. You should read up on that one. You wanna talk about some crazy stuff.

Re: Goodbye fariwell and peace out

Just a +1 on the MK3 extruder problems, another one with the same problem - filament getting too hot to handle, and I have a feeling it's getting worse... From the beginning everything works, now I'm unable to use PLA due to melting it before it goes into the extruder. Not good Prusa! Do something please!

Re: Goodbye fariwell and peace out

Just a +1 on the MK3 extruder problems, another one with the same problem - filament getting too hot to handle, and I have a feeling it's getting worse... From the beginning everything works, now I'm unable to use PLA due to melting it before it goes into the extruder. Not good Prusa! Do something please!

Have you checked the filament sensor? There have been a couple reports of short circuits in the filament sensor causing the sensor to get really hot. in one case it actually melted the 3D printed part holding the sensor and Bondtech gears in place.

I'm skeptical about the heat coming from the extruder stepper. It just doens't get hot enough, and the Bondtech gears aren't all that tightly thermally coupled to the motor.

Re: Goodbye fariwell and peace out

No kidding on the Amazon thing. First result:
--
Sponsored
[Sponsored]HICTOP Creality CR-10 3D Printer Prusa I3 DIY Kit Aluminum Large Print Size 300x300x400mm
by HICTOP
$499.00 $ 499 00 Prime
Get it by Tomorrow, Apr 13
--

Pretty crappy that it even seems to imply that it is a Prusa kit.

Re: Goodbye fariwell and peace out

@david.s33,

What do you expect from a company that makes a cheap clone of another company's clone?
You have to be really careful now when buying a low cost printer that you are not getting a knock off of a knock off.

Re: Goodbye fariwell and peace out

My point is.
Prusa Supports the "community"
Lulzbot Supports the "community"
There are others as well, they are just the big two for Marlin, which I am invested in, after buying a Mk3.

Any company that competes finincally with Prusa, or Lulzbot,. (meaning reducing their sales) (And not giving back to the community in a similar method)
Hurts me personally.

If I say. "John, Go buy a Lulzbot." Some of that money will go to developing features that might end up on MY Prusa printer I already own!
If I say. "John, Go buy a ______ non-GPL compliant marlin based printer." (I am not going to say Creality, as it appears they are playing nice for now!) That money is 100% lost to some wealthy invester, who does NOT support the marlin community.

The _____ non-GPL compliant printer company's printer, is a VERY bad investment for both the actual purchaser, AND community. They don't help improve any printers, other than their own. This may sound good, but it ends up being bad. Their firmware becomes a "branch" and not a "fork" meaning, they fail to get the "updates" from the community, and with a community the size of Marlin, You want to stay "close" to the original Marlin code! So that means that over time, the "non-GPL printer" even IF the company has VERY good development, falls behind the rest of the Marlin community. This is bad for the owner of the printer. And this is bad for the community in more than one way.

It's not about the "law". It's about "How to support the community." And just do "What's right."

PS: Chinese trademark law is amazing. You should read up on that one. You wanna talk about some crazy stuff.

Because you are mixing GPL-compliance and community participation, let me ask you the following question:

What would have been your view of a company that makes 100 different models of the best printers on the market, all based on Marlin but the only thing they did is change the firmware configuration settings for their printers. They do release their Marlin modifications but those don't apply to anything expect their printers.

What will your stance be with regard to that fictional company? They obviously make a lot of money because their printers are actually good, they support their printers, they comply with all licensing. They don't need to develop any new features that might end up in your Prusa.

Edit: I am not trying to antagonize you or anyone else. I am just simply trying to highlight the difference between legal compliance and voluntary community participation. I honestly believe that given the hypothetical situation above, a lot of GPL/community pundits would end buying that company's printers and abandon their rhetoric.

Re: Goodbye fariwell and peace out

Because you are mixing GPL-compliance and community participation, let me ask you the following question:

What would have been your view of a company that makes 100 different models of the best printers on the market, all based on Marlin but the only thing they did is change the firmware configuration settings for their printers. They do release their Marlin modifications but those don't apply to anything expect their printers.

What will your stance be with regard to that fictional company? They obviously make a lot of money because their printers are actually good, they support their printers, they comply with all licensing. They don't need to develop any new features that might end up in your Prusa.

Edit: I am not trying to antagonize you or anyone else. I am just simply trying to highlight the difference between legal compliance and voluntary community participation. I honestly believe that given the hypothetical situation above, a lot of GPL/community pundits would end buying that company's printers and abandon their rhetoric.

Before I went to MRRF2018, I would have bought that sucker no questions asked!

But after going, I've realised it's not about being a "prusa fanboy" or whatever.

It's about supporting Reprap. (broader scale than just Marlin... I support Marlin as the firmware, because I'm invested in it, and getting more and more familar with it's code/quirks)

I'm fiarly new to 3D printing, but I do know the history of Consumer 3D printing, and I am *VERY* eager to learn more. Consumer 3D printers started as a small community of "makers", and has grown exponentially since. This has both been good and bad.

I start with bad.
75% of the growth of 3D printing, is BAD. It's not innovative. It really does not support the community, nor the advacement of 3D printing.
That means 75% of money spent on 3D printers, goes against the best interest of anyone who owns a 3D printer.

I'm gonna bring up Creality here, not because I am bashing them, but they are a wildly popular printer... but.

Prusa announces the Mk3. Lists new features. Prusa IMPROVED 3D printers for everyone.

Creality, said "Yup, time to upgrade. Hey designers, go slap ___ and ___ on there REALLY QUICK."

That hurts the overall market. Creality has done nothing to "help" other than bring "new people to the scene".

E3D, SeeMeCNC, Prusa, Bondtech, LulzBot, Prusa, and MANY others are dedicated to betting the community, and it's ALL "free".

If you go buy a Creality.
Those companies listed above, designed and released it open source, So *YOU* can go build your own printer.

Companies like Creality, are taking the "YOU" out of "build your own printer.

And it's not just Creality. Basically anything from china should be avoided. Creality is a great target though, because they are a high end printer, that almost compares with the "real deal" printers... Most of the other Chinese junk... is... Junk.
Tiko anyone?

PS: that's a single shell, 10x10x10 test cube

Re: Goodbye fariwell and peace out

Those companies listed above, designed and released it open source, So *YOU* can go build your own printer.

Ahh, this is where you are wrong and I suspect your "community" argument runs into a wall when it comes to companies like Creality.

Open source is so *ANYONE* can go build a printer. That includes other companies that just want to make money. That includes *ANY AND ALL* companies, persons, or other entities that want to build one.

And it's not just Creality. Basically anything from china should be avoided.

If you consider "good community participation" as only innovatation, then please, avoid any company that does not "innovate". But "good" community participation is not only innovation. For example, a Chinese (or any other country's) company can be a good community member simply by designing a good, simple, reliable printer that is relative cheap BECAUSE IT LEVERAGES OPEN SOURCE HW AND SW in order to attract more people to 3D printing.

Re: Goodbye fariwell and peace out

@Sean: Your printer is very creative with the design 🙂

In most parts I do agree with you. Yes, the chinese "copy"-products companies profit a lot from the external developments. But there is one important point. Many people wouldn't buy a printer at all for the regular price. Paying over $1k for a 3D printer first time, is just like jumping into the cold water. Seduce your wife/family that this is a needed and good investment is really hard.
Buying a cheap copy over seas is kind of a solution to this situation. After this first printer it's much easier to buy a second original printer. Usually you know what you like/dislike and what you want. As an example we do have some people here who bought MK3 after they got A8 as a first printer.

So yes, the money is going to the wrong direction but this money might be never spent. And the 3d printing community do profit from that because more people are getting attracted and some are willing to pay for original after they got a copy first. And they are starting to look for alternative firmwares and are getting involved in the open source development as-well.

I see it more like a win-win situation. Would I recommend to buy someone new a CR-10S or ender? Most likely not.

Re: Goodbye fariwell and peace out

In the vast majority of cases, the people who whine the most (and most incoherently) about intellectual property concerns are never the actual intellectuals. They’re just using it as a vehicle to achieve second-hand technical status (think: second hand smoke*) and act out their other “issues”.

I have a license. I expect you to abide by the terms of the license. You don’t have to “be nice” to my “community”. You don’t have to contribute money to my effort.

If you violate the license, you don’t even need to apologize.

There’s only one thing that matters to GPL:

This long rambling garbage that you keep posting? That indicates to me that you don’t care about the code at all because ALL THAT HAS FUCKALL TO DO WITH THE THING THAT ACTUALLY MATTERS. You clearly care more about something else. Something… non-technical. More on that later.

And my reference is "community"
You keep missing this key word.

Right, so if you search my post for the word “community” you will find zero instances of it in my arguments and I never addressed it, right?

Your community argument has been dealt with already. It’s pretty much a “that’s nice; don’t care”.

Honestly, I am slighly disapointed in my Mk3. I was Expecting Mk2s x2 quality.

Not Mk2s x0.5 quality.

And that, also, is what matters.

It’s the printer that matters.

So in what universe does Creality’s X month GPL violation result in anything getting fixed on your MK3?

For instance, Creality complies with GPL and suddenly:

Challenge: Creality’s code has been released. Go through the code and point out what change Creality made that would have made any impact on your MK3.

Any company that competes finincally with Prusa, or Lulzbot,. (meaning reducing their sales) (And not giving back to the community in a similar method)
Hurts me personally.

That is some seriously entitled shit to think that any company that competes with your pet brands (and doesn’t make nice with your “community”) hurts you personally.

You’re essentially a SJW for your perceived community. Replace the word “social” with “community”, and you are literally, literally, out seeking “community justice”. Literally.

So much so that you feel entitled to damages from financial competition. That is where we have now arrived.

You have, at the very least, serious entitlement issues.

And you’re wielding GPL like a blunt object trying to get your way, when clearly it has really nothing to do with anything else, especially after compliance has already been gained.

Challenge: reform your argument without the use of GPL.

If I say. "John, Go buy a Lulzbot." Some of that money will go to developing features that might end up on MY Prusa printer I already own!
If I say. "John, Go buy a ______ non-GPL compliant marlin based printer." (I am not going to say Creality, as it appears they are playing nice for now!) That money is 100% lost to some wealthy invester, who does NOT support the marlin community.

The _____ non-GPL compliant printer company's printer, is a VERY bad investment for both the actual purchaser, AND community. They don't help improve any printers, other than their own. This may sound good, but it ends up being bad. Their firmware becomes a "branch" and not a "fork" meaning, they fail to get the "updates" from the community, and with a community the size of Marlin, You want to stay "close" to the original Marlin code! So that means that over time, the "non-GPL printer" even IF the company has VERY good development, falls behind the rest of the Marlin community. This is bad for the owner of the printer. And this is bad for the community in more than one way.

And if you say, “John, go buy a Creality GPL compliant marlin based printer” (They’re compliant now, so why beat around the bush?) how is “that money” still not 100% lost to some wealthy “invester” (sic) who does NOT support the Marlin community? As you stated, they complied with GPL but still do not support the community, so how does GPL compliance make squat difference? It’s a don’t-care. You can reform this entire argument without GPL involvement, so why do you continue wielding it?

It's not about the "law". It's about "How to support the community." And just do "What's right."

Then shut the Hell up about the law.

PS: Chinese trademark law is amazing. You should read up on that one. You wanna talk about some crazy stuff.

Oops. Again, if it’s not about the law, then shut the Hell up about the law.

But as I started with, this is the key line. Contained in this very last throwaway “PS” is your key grievance, though we all know you won’t admit to it. I'm glad you threw that in there at the end because it makes it available for everyone to see, and you did it of your own volition.

* https://www.theonion.com/secondhand-smoke-linked-to-secondhand-coolness-1819564071

Re: Goodbye fariwell and peace out

That is some seriously entitled shit to think that any company that competes with your pet brands (and doesn’t make nice with your “community”) hurts you personally.

Yup.

Prusa.
Lulzbot
BCN3D
SeeMeCNC
Ultimaker
Flashforge
Wanhao
Formlabs
iMade3D
...

I can keep going.

I'm entitled. Becuase my "pet" brands list is so short, it's about half of all printer companies!

Honestly the ONLY reason it's shorter than the chinese knock-off's, is every chinese 3D printer, has around 50-100 different brands duct taped to them.

If you were to honestly compare the number of "companies" that are GOOD for the community, vs "profit off the community", I would say there are comparable numbers of each.

Some Chinese companies even take an active role in the Reprap Community.

There are just MANY that contribute nothing, and if you support the community.
Regardless of if you have a 5000$ SeeMeCNC, a 3000$ Lulzbot, a 1000$ Prusa, or a 350$ Wanhao.
Someone buying an Ultimaker HELPS YOU.

Someone Buying an Anet A8, or an Anycubic... Does not help anyone. It infact hurts everyone.

Now that Apparently Creality isgoing to work directly with marlin, I would go as far as to say they are going to become an asset to the community... I would consider them one of the "good guys", if they make good on their words.

So, If you own a Creality, and your friend buys an Anet A8. He is NOT helping the community, which in turn, does NOT help either of you.
If you own a Creality, and your friend buys a Wanhao... He is helping the community, which in turns helps both of you.

Feel free to say "Pet brands". But if Creality makes good on their words, and actually WORKS with the Marlin devs, I think they will become an ASSET to the community.

But you know. I have such a narrow list of Pet Brands... 🙄