Re: getting a 3d printer...
I don't how how to post such a reaction, but yes... 🙂
Great information here. Thank you all!
Ok, so on the printing side, it seems that technically it should possible to get the results I want (and perhaps even in more detail than I anticipated), so it will come down to my learning to use it. For sure I need to up my post-processing skills a bit, but doing it is the best way to do that as I assume there are some specifics for 3D prints. I'd also need to refresh my modeling skills - should I clarify that I mean 3D modeling skills? 😉 Did a bit of that WAY back (the 3D modeling !), my main gripe was always to the lighting and the reflection of the textures and materials correct, but that does not matter here 🙂 .
A few questions on the practical side... I live in an average sized apartment, so ...
How noisy is it? And is it more of a constant hum (e.g. like the cooling fans on a desktop computer) and/or do you hear the movement (e.g. like on an inkjet printer)?
From what I read, printing ABS creates smells (and justify an enclosure maybe even with filters), how is it for other filaments?
You read some horror stories of fires, but of course there is the negative bias for such topics (nobody posts "hey, I did not have a fire"). I assume common sense goes a long way (stable platform, adequate spacing, don't be stupid, don't go out while printing, ...). Any particular suggestions for to placement of a printer regarding safety, comfort and even print quality?
For example: do you need easy access to all sides of the printer in normal situations? Also, I've read that a hotter ambient temperature helps (mainly for abs) and that airflow may cause issues... yes?
I know it is early to ask when I only will manage to get the printer after New Year, but I will have to create a space to put the printer, which will probably include getting/making some furniture, so I might as well try to make it as practical and safe as possible.
Re: getting a 3d printer...
Hi Jorg,
I have mine in the living room,
the mk3 is louder now than it was in the beginning, but that is subjective, it's much quieter than the mk2
you can listen to the radio, while its printing,
I have actually had my cellphone right next to the printer whilst talking on loud speaker, and the person at the other end, who also has a 3d printer, couldn't hear my printer.
ABS is nasty. it affected my breathing, I don't use it. at all...
enclosures normally only needed for ABS and high temperature filaments,
drafts haven't caused me problems
fires... non for me so far, the majority of users don't have fires...
Tom Sandladerer did an article on youtube, looking at safety implementation... the prusa came out well...
just be sensible...
Joan
I try to make safe suggestions,You should understand the context and ensure you are happy that they are safe before attempting to apply my suggestions, what you do, is YOUR responsibility. Location Halifax UK
Re: getting a 3d printer...
Thanks for the reply!
I have mine in the living room,
the mk3 is louder now than it was in the beginning, but that is subjective, it's much quieter than the mk2
you can listen to the radio, while its printing,
I have actually had my cellphone right next to the printer whilst talking on loud speaker, and the person at the other end, who also has a 3d printer, couldn't hear my printer.
I have two possible locations: First is a spare room where I have a big desk and wardrobes, but as a result the room is quite small and crowded. But for sure it will go on the desk as a start, before getting a more permanent location either in that room (it could replace a rather unused small bookshelf in a corner) or in a lost corner in the living room. For either location, I would need to get/make some furniture for it.
I have a slight preference to putting it in the lost corner of the living room: the room is better ventilated and it would be easier to keep an eye on it. But of course then the noise matters more (it would be at about 1m from the sitting area).
I suspect it is best to plan the positioning in a way that it is easy to service the printer (or at least that it can easily be removed)?
Do you often need to access the printer from other sides?
ABS is nasty. it affected my breathing, I don't use it. at all...
enclosures normally only needed for ABS and high temperature filaments,
drafts haven't caused me problems
fires... non for me so far, the majority of users don't have fires...
It is of course the same as this negative bias on forums: people usually only post when they have problems, so on a forum you mainly see that people have problems, but you don't see the majority that is silent because they have no problems and no reason to post. Good to know about ABS, I probably don't need it (for sure not at first), so I won't even bother trying it without appropriate precautions.
Tom Sandladerer did an article on youtube, looking at safety implementation... the prusa came out well...
Interesting stuff (I looked at a few of his other videos as well) ! 🙂
just be sensible...
Yes. But it never hurts to be well-informed.
There are some nice DIY furniture solutions (the one using the Lack tables is interesting, although I would replace the Lack components with similarly cut heat resistant kitchen-countertop material (shops often tend to have leftover pieces at low prices). It would be slightly more expensive but would give me more piece of mind. There is also is another one that uses 4040 aluminum extrusion profiles, and that one looks superb. But I can shop/look around, see what else comes up (and how easy it is to source materials).
Re: getting a 3d printer...
[...] I have two possible locations: First is a spare room where I have a big desk and wardrobes, but as a result the room is quite small and crowded. But for sure it will go on the desk as a start, before getting a more permanent location either in that room (it could replace a rather unused small bookshelf in a corner) or in a lost corner in the living room. For either location, I would need to get/make some furniture for it.
I have a slight preference to putting it in the lost corner of the living room: the room is better ventilated and it would be easier to keep an eye on it. But of course then the noise matters more (it would be at about 1m from the sitting area).
I have a couch next to my printer and have fallen asleep as it prints ... more than once. I have a room air filter running on the lowest setting right next to the printer table, and it is louder. I do not use stealth mode. Noise is not likely to be a problem, although it does make some noise when making large moves.
You could also set up a webcam to monitor the prints from a phone, tablet or computer in another room.
I suspect it is best to plan the positioning in a way that it is easy to service the printer (or at least that it can easily be removed)?
Most servicing can be done from the front. Make sure you leave room for the Y axis to be fully extended back. I had a perfect rack for my printer until I actually tried to print and the bed promptly slid back into the rear of the rack.
Do you often need to access the printer from other sides?
When it comes to the safety features, there's more than that. The MARLIN firmware has a number of thermal safety checks, and Prusa has them all enabled. Many of the low-cost "just as good" printer manufacturers intentionally disable the safety features for a number of reasons, resulting in potential fire hazards. The odds of a genuine Prusa catching fire are actually much less than the "housewarmer" models.
It is of course the same as this negative bias on forums: people usually only post when they have problems, so on a forum you mainly see that people have problems, but you don't see the majority that is silent because they have no problems and no reason to post.
Good to know about ABS, I probably don't need it (for sure not at first), so I won't even bother trying it without appropriate precautions.
There are plenty of modern materials that don't smell badly and are at least not reported to be dangerous. PLA prints without significant smell, although it is noticeable. PETG and NGEN are also not objectionable. From what you've written, PLA should be fine for most of your needs. Most of the filled materials are PLA-based. I have read that carbon-fiber filled materials are a bit of a hazard in terms of airborne particles, so you'll want to consider ventilation for printing those materials, especially around kids and pets. I do like an air filter, but that's mostly to keep odors down, not for safety filtration which would require something more specialized.
Take your time before jumping in for an enclosure. You absolutely need one for printing ABS and some speciality materials. If you have curious kids or animals, safety might dictate using one. However, a lot of people are finding that a full enclosure introduces its own mechanical challenges, particularly during warm summer months. An enclosure warms things up significantly. I've abandoned the idea myself.
[...] There are some nice DIY furniture solutions (the one using the Lack tables is interesting, although I would replace the Lack components with similarly cut heat resistant kitchen-countertop material (shops often tend to have leftover pieces at low prices). It would be slightly more expensive but would give me more piece of mind. There is also is another one that uses 4040 aluminum extrusion profiles, and that one looks superb. But I can shop/look around, see what else comes up (and how easy it is to source materials).
Also consider the effect of a flimsy surface on noise. The Lack tables are cheap, but not particularly robust. Printing on a flat surface will cause that surface to vibrate. If you hit a resonant frequency, it can be quite loud. I'd focus on a solid print platform 1st. This will affect noise as well as print quality.
and miscellaneous other tech projects
He is intelligent, but not experienced. His pattern indicates two dimensional thinking. -- Spock in Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan
Re: getting a 3d printer...
Hi Jorg
i can't think of any maintenance, done from the sides or back once the printer is built and placed in situe
you need space for the power cable and access to the on off switch to the right even if you get a right angle mains plug, you should have space for your fingers to reach the power switch.
down the left hand side you need space for the USB Cable and the X axis motor and wiring to move.
above, you need space for filament and holder or some alternative filament management solution
behind, you need space for the build plate to stick out and cable bundle behind (there are cable fittings on thingiverse that swing the bundle through 90 degrees for use in confined enclosures
in front you need space for the build plate to stick out... it knocked my mug of coffee off the table when a print finished... 😯
regards Joan
I try to make safe suggestions,You should understand the context and ensure you are happy that they are safe before attempting to apply my suggestions, what you do, is YOUR responsibility. Location Halifax UK
Re: getting a 3d printer...
as you can see, we all have the same printer and we all have different experiences, 😯
I try to make safe suggestions,You should understand the context and ensure you are happy that they are safe before attempting to apply my suggestions, what you do, is YOUR responsibility. Location Halifax UK
Re: getting a 3d printer...
What bobstro & joan.t said... again. 🙂
Hey, I did not have a fire! 😀 (Yet! 🙄 ) Common sense suggests smoke detectors and extinguishers in dwellings. I don't see Lack tables as a fire issue, but an impervious (and stable) material can always be placed between the tabletop & printer. In another thread someone mentioned using a "cement" block for this. I always thought aerogel would be really cool for this, alas cost & availability prevent that for now.
For board game components, I can't see need (except in some rare situation) for anything more exotic than PLA, and new formulations of PLA with different properties (strength, flexibility, novelties) are proliferating at (IMO) an astounding rate.
Our printer is eventually going to make a home in my office closet. While noise is from the motion in various directions, it hasn't been a problem at all (so far). Once you get used to all the sounds your printer makes, you can kind of tell if things are ok or not (like the comforting sound of the dog snoring--all is right with the world. 😀 ) Noise and drafts will be controllable by opening/closing the closet door(s). I've designed an enclosure, because I eventually plan to print with Nylon (one of the higher temperature materials), but I'll likely have to scale it back some due to overkill. If anything occurs such that access is required from the sides/back, I can just pick it up and bring it to my desk/workspace--it only weighs ~14lbs./6.35kg.
As Sean Connery/Allan Quartermain said in The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen (2003):
Take your time with it. You have all the time you need. All the time in the world.
😀
That's "MISTER Old Fart" to you!
Re: getting a 3d printer...
I have a couch next to my printer and have fallen asleep as it prints ... more than once. I have a room air filter running on the lowest setting right next to the printer table, and it is louder. I do not use stealth mode. Noise is not likely to be a problem, although it does make some noise when making large moves.
You could also set up a webcam to monitor the prints from a phone, tablet or computer in another room.
Nice to hear. On some articles they mention noise as a downside of most 3D printers, but it is never really quantified (which of course is a difficult thing to do) or even described.
I'm assuming it is a combination of a constant hum (ventilators, comparable to a desktop computer) with the sound of an inkjet printer when large movements are made. Is it something like that?
You could also set up a webcam to monitor the prints from a phone, tablet or computer in another room.
A webcam would be there for sure: I have a Raspberry PI 3B+ with a small touch screen which does not see much use, so it would be perfect to use it for Octoprint (via USB), mainly to allow me to connect the printer to the network. But once the Raspberry is there, a simple USB webcam is a small step.
Most servicing can be done from the front. Make sure you leave room for the Y axis to be fully extended back. I had a perfect rack for my printer until I actually tried to print and the bed promptly slid back into the rear of the rack.
Thanks! That facilitates finding a placement. That is unfortunate (about the back sliding in to the rear). It would be nice if the specifications of the printer would also mention the volume it needs for operation... 🙂 The fact that it just fits in a Lack enclosure (small alteration of hotbed cable needed), gives me a good estimate of the minimum dimensions I need. For sure I won't buy anything or put anything together without having the printer in real life and verifying things, but thanks for the heads-up!
When it comes to the safety features, there's more than that. The MARLIN firmware has a number of thermal safety checks, and Prusa has them all enabled. Many of the low-cost "just as good" printer manufacturers intentionally disable the safety features for a number of reasons, resulting in potential fire hazards. The odds of a genuine Prusa catching fire are actually much less than the "housewarmer" models.
Yes, the video Joan mentioned explains those aspects.
There are plenty of modern materials that don't smell badly and are at least not reported to be dangerous. PLA prints without significant smell, although it is noticeable. PETG and NGEN are also not objectionable. From what you've written, PLA should be fine for most of your needs. Most of the filled materials are PLA-based. I have read that carbon-fiber filled materials are a bit of a hazard in terms of airborne particles, so you'll want to consider ventilation for printing those materials, especially around kids and pets. I do like an air filter, but that's mostly to keep odors down, not for safety filtration which would require something more specialized.
Nice info!
Take your time before jumping in for an enclosure. You absolutely need one for printing ABS and some speciality materials. If you have curious kids or animals, safety might dictate using one. However, a lot of people are finding that a full enclosure introduces its own mechanical challenges, particularly during warm summer months. An enclosure warms things up significantly. I've abandoned the idea myself.
No kids or animals running around. 🙂
A big difference between the candidate locations is that one is in an air-conditioned room, whereas the other is not. Without the air-conditioning, it can get very hot here. The printer adding heat to the other room could be an issue.
The enclosure would in my case in the first place be a general dust protection when not in operation, and also making it perhaps easier on the eyes (the lost corner in the living room is the most visible corner when you enter). Functionally wise that would be the best location for me, but I would like it to fit with the rest of the interior (that is not an issue in the other room). So the table/enclosure/whatever and choice of location may also just depend on that.
Also consider the effect of a flimsy surface on noise. The Lack tables are cheap, but not particularly robust. Printing on a flat surface will cause that surface to vibrate. If you hit a resonant frequency, it can be quite loud. I'd focus on a solid print platform 1st. This will affect noise as well as print quality.
We have that issue with an espresso machine: during pressurization it resonates with the kitchen countertop and the wall. Huge noise and vibrations as a result (it is actually louder in the neighbouring room because of that). To counteract it, we've been putting it on some material that seems to soften it somewhat, but nothing that is really a long term solution (it all wears out after some months). Still looking at better options - I noticed that someone made feet for dampening a 3D printer using squashballs, and that may be something to try for the espresso. (I looked at vibration dampening platforms, feet and even magnetic suspended feet but they are expensive and I don't know if they would work for this type of device - usually it is for audio equipment or lab equipment.... so I'm open to other suggestions also).
I guess like almost everybody, I too had a Lack table, and they are good for what they are. Still, the concept of the Lack based enclosure is nice and can be applied on other panels and materials (e.g. a slab of kitchen countertop material) and more solid legs.
Re: getting a 3d printer...
i can't think of any maintenance, done from the sides or back once the printer is built and placed in situe
...
Great summary! Thanks!
Re: getting a 3d printer...
In another thread someone mentioned using a "cement" block for this. I always thought aerogel would be really cool for this, alas cost & availability prevent that for now.
I also saw that. Seems like a clean and simple solution. A floor tile could also be an option (albeit less heavy).
Our printer is eventually going to make a home in my office closet. While noise is from the motion in various directions, it hasn't been a problem at all (so far). Once you get used to all the sounds your printer makes, you can kind of tell if things are ok or not (like the comforting sound of the dog snoring--all is right with the world. 😀 )
So what did you name your printer? 😉
Noise and drafts will be controllable by opening/closing the closet door(s). I've designed an enclosure, because I eventually plan to print with Nylon (one of the higher temperature materials), but I'll likely have to scale it back some due to overkill. If anything occurs such that access is required from the sides/back, I can just pick it up and bring it to my desk/workspace--it only weighs ~14lbs./6.35kg.
Nice idea!
Re: getting a 3d printer...
for the "lost corner, " you could re print the plastics in wood fill, and imagine it was furniture! 😮
Joan
I try to make safe suggestions,You should understand the context and ensure you are happy that they are safe before attempting to apply my suggestions, what you do, is YOUR responsibility. Location Halifax UK
Re: getting a 3d printer...
I'm assuming it is a combination of a constant hum (ventilators, comparable to a desktop computer) with the sound of an inkjet printer when large movements are made. Is it something like that?
Not even. Another criteria for our choosing this particular printer was its quietude. The fans--even at 100%--are barely perceptible. Noise is mostly from other moving parts, and has been reduced by stepper drivers, firmware, and other features. Lots of vids/turorials on making printers quieter, but with this one, I think it's more like competitive tweaking rather than sanity retention. 😉
That's "MISTER Old Fart" to you!
Re: getting a 3d printer...
for the "lost corner, " you could re print the plastics in wood fill, and imagine it was furniture! 😮
The room has quite modern and light furniture, mainly metal framed (come to think of it, there is not a single wooden object in the living room, apart from the parquet floor). If I were to go pure on aesthetics, a nicely finished Delta style 3D printer (e.g. Wasp) would fit right in as sculpture. 😀
But that is why I like the diy cabinet based on the 4040 profiles. The idea is easy to customize (because the chance of finding some off-the-shelf that fits a 3D printer are slim), can be without sidepanels, so just an open shelf and might blend in ok. Currently thinking about something along those lines...
Not even. Another criteria for our choosing this particular printer was its quietude. The fans--even at 100%--are barely perceptible. Noise is mostly from other moving parts, and has been reduced by stepper drivers, firmware, and other features. Lots of vids/turorials on making printers quieter, but with this one, I think it's more like competitive tweaking rather than sanity retention. 😉
Great to hear!
Re: getting a 3d printer...
You do realize that your home is going to be filled with useless plastic little boats and 20mm cubes, don't you? Forget any sleek modern Euro style fantasy you may have, and be prepared for decorating with plastic batman busts and Legos. Highlights will be large spools of colored materials.
[...] The room has quite modern and light furniture, mainly metal framed (come to think of it, there is not a single wooden object in the living room, apart from the parquet floor). If I were to go pure on aesthetics, a nicely finished Delta style 3D printer (e.g. Wasp) would fit right in as sculpture. 😀
and miscellaneous other tech projects
He is intelligent, but not experienced. His pattern indicates two dimensional thinking. -- Spock in Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan
Re: getting a 3d printer...
I see very little negative about the prusa. Incredible support. I am not in the waiting phase for my assembled powder coated bed to ship.
--------------------
Chuck H
3D Printer Review Blog
Re: getting a 3d printer...
You do realize that your home is going to be filled with useless plastic little boats and 20mm cubes, don't you? Forget any sleek modern Euro style fantasy you may have, and be prepared for decorating with plastic batman busts and Legos. Highlights will be large spools of colored materials.
Yes.... A potential risk... 😀
The living room is quite minimalistic, so there is not much room for such busts (but my originial Tintin shark-submarine, Lego Mini and Lego Beetle all have a place there). The main goal is the board game items, (which are not exposed) but I expect that there may be quite some flowerpots and for sure some other plastic items as well; of course some things will get printed :). We'll see how it goes... 🙂 Spools of coloured material can be hidden away.
(Don't your friends get tired of receiving 3D printed busts as presents? 😉 )
O, one thing I wanted to ask still: filament is best going to the printer from above, if a spool would be e.g. to the left of the printer, is it possible to guide the filament up and back down (through some guides or so, perhaps with pulleys and bearings to minimize any friction), or may that be asking for trouble?
Re: getting a 3d printer...
It it possible to use PTFE tube to redirect the filament, this takes out the side loading on the extruder like a reverse bowden feed https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2764643
the simplest option I have seen is this https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:99179
there are other versions with bearings which are more complex but perhaps more effective
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2727093
I try to make safe suggestions,You should understand the context and ensure you are happy that they are safe before attempting to apply my suggestions, what you do, is YOUR responsibility. Location Halifax UK
Re: getting a 3d printer...
You do realize that your home is going to be filled with useless plastic little boats and 20mm cubes, don't you? Forget any sleek modern Euro style fantasy you may have, and be prepared for decorating with plastic batman busts and Legos. Highlights will be large spools of colored materials.
That's why ours will be taking up residence in my office closet. There won't be much else in there when that happens, and overflow can still (not that it realistically will...) be confined to my office/cave... 😀
Spools of coloured material can be hidden away.
BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!! 😆 That's a good one!
O, one thing I wanted to ask still: filament is best going to the printer from above, if a spool would be e.g. to the left of the printer, is it possible to guide the filament up and back down (through some guides or so, perhaps with pulleys and bearings to minimize any friction), or may that be asking for trouble?
I don't know if that's true or not. If so, I would think that is because the top of the extruder is often/usually where the filament enters the printer. My best guess is that it's printer-dependent. I've seen so many YT vids of spool holder modifications, enclosures, moisture-resistant containers, etc. Some have/use Bowden tubes--others don't... What's important (AFAIK) is that the filament gets there without too much resistance, and avoids kinking. I would think some imagination & ingenuity could go a long way.
That's "MISTER Old Fart" to you!
Re: getting a 3d printer...
It it possible to use PTFE tube to redirect the filament, this takes out the side loading on the extruder like a reverse bowden feed https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2764643
the simplest option I have seen is this https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:99179
there are other versions with bearings which are more complex but perhaps more effective
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2727093
Thanks!
The knowledge that such things are possible opens up a bit more possibilities for placement of the printer. 🙂 I would still get it from the top of the printer, but then loosely guided to the side. From the examples you posted, that looks possible.
That's why ours will be taking up residence in my office closet. There won't be much else in there when that happens, and overflow can still (not that it realistically will...) be confined to my office/cave... 😀
Spools of coloured material can be hidden away.
BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!! 😆 That's a good one!
Rookie mistake? 🙂
I meant that they don't have to be on exposé, but rather can be in an enclosed cabinet. It would be nice to have them close to the printer of course, so any furniture take will take the printer will have to take spools. So... It looks like I'm decided on the printer, now to work on where and how it fits with all accessories, in a way that blends in... 🙂
Some have/use Bowden tubes--others don't... What's important (AFAIK) is that the filament gets there without too much resistance, and avoids kinking. I would think some imagination & ingenuity could go a long way.
Pulley may have been the wrong word from me. I more meant pulley as "a guide with moving parts to minimize friction", rather than something around which the filament sits tight; so something exactly like the last example Joan posted (with the bearing).
I would still have the filament enter the printer from the top, but then lead it from there away. From the things Joan posted and the things you said, it should be possible to do something like that, with proper imagination and ingenuity as you say. 🙂
Re: getting a 3d printer...
You are already on the Slippery slope Jorg... you still believe things like.... " the filament can be hidden away" I have two multidrawer cabinets with a total of 10 drawers. and I still have more rolls of filament than the drawers will hide...
I have 4 rolls of filament above the Mk2 MMUv1 machine,
1 roll on top of the Mk3 machine,
and numerous rolls of filament on various surfaces around,
I have been doing multicolour printing on both machines, the Mk2 MMUv1 can easily do four colours in one layer so I have been using it to make badges, and the
Mk3 has been making layer separation colour items...
where I have to change the colour periodically.
I use the M600 command, either manually inserted or fudged by Slic3r as a pseudo multicolour printer
but that's a story for another day...
I bet you're itching to get designing!
Joan
I try to make safe suggestions,You should understand the context and ensure you are happy that they are safe before attempting to apply my suggestions, what you do, is YOUR responsibility. Location Halifax UK