Prusa Delays  

RE: Prusa Delays

Two reasons I won't be ordering a Bambu

1) Cloud service. same reason I didn't buy a Gloforge. I have no internet and very sketchy cell service in my shop.

2) The MASSIVE amount of waste shown in vids when using the color change. In many cases more material wasted than used in the project.

RE:

Own three now.  Your concerns are valid.  I ended up buying two X1s and a P1P.  They are good printers but in my opinion are over hyped.  

I also do not like the cloud service or proprietary tech.  The printer does waste a lot when changing filaments.  

I am not going to cancel my XL order.  I might elect to just take the one head and upgrade later.  

Posted by: @bcer960

Two reasons I won't be ordering a Bambu

1) Cloud service. same reason I didn't buy a Gloforge. I have no internet and very sketchy cell service in my shop.

2) The MASSIVE amount of waste shown in vids when using the color change. In many cases more material wasted than used in the project.

RE: Prusa Delays

I haven't followed the thing with the Bambu slicer, have they released their sources by now? If yes, has someone checked the % changes from Prusa code?

RE: Prusa Delays

I agree and I've said it here and other threads.  Working on the Mk3 print head is always a task that I leave to only as a last resort- especially with the MMU2S attached.  being able to swap heads rather than tear apart and re assembly would be a game changer.

I'm not a fan of Prusa going to injection molding.  If anything, I think that they need to be going the other way and increase the use of printed parts- and actually use multimaterial manufacturing.  The MMU would be a usable system if Prusa were using it to make parts.  If they go to injection molding, they will lose a lot of in-house 'testing' of their printers- and goes against their AFS system.  Going to injection molding goes against all that- and would slow down innovation and instituting fixes.

Maybe for a mature printer like the MK3 or the Mini where going to injection molded parts might help with hitting lower price points and the iterative design process is at its end.

Posted by: @ntdesign

Full agreement on the controller. Don't you think they'll use the XL head in a potential Mk4? It seems like wasted development to not use it. Also would (finally) improve servicing and bed levelling by a huge margin, plus it's a massive perk for a new printer. Not sure if carrying over the segmented bed would be worth it, but if the XL print head is any good I would be tempted.
Why not leave the rest of the printer the same. They know how to build & ship the frame, probably have cost-optimized the process and it just works. It would potentially allow pushing out a Mk4 relatively fast (if production lines for Mk4 and XL are separate). An optional linear rail upgrade would be interesting, but I don't think a huge fraction of existing customers would care enough to pay for it. I just know so many people who couldn't care less if it's corexy or whatever. Ultimaker style makes more sense anyway for a 25x25 printer in my opinion, but that's religion.

Since you mention it: They have reached a point where they have to decide between healthy growth and aggressively claiming more market share. The community wants healthy growth, otherwise we'll get printers that fail fast so they can sell more. In the long run, that requires a loyal user base to be sustainable (= free advertising, regular recurring sales). But currently they're starting to piss people off.

RE:

A Prusa MK3+ assembled with the full Prusa enclosure (with fan) plus a Pi4 or OrangePi5 for Octoprint is $3k from distributors in Canada, where BambuLabs have set up a distribution point in Canada and shipping is included in their $1.5 K price for the X1C. Now the MK3+ is certainly a more robust/reliable product as it has been iterated since MK2 in 2016. However, the XL has yet to come out and you could never hope to achieve the reliability of a 6+ year product in its first showing. If the X1C can print twice as fast as an MK3+ for a model you needed, and you needed the enclosure (think ABS parts) , you could potentially gain a 4x gain from the X1C. Even if not as reliable, that'd be hard to ignore. Their AMS system also seems pretty good for a first iteration. The prices have gone up significantly in Canada for Prusa stuff and likely it is both a price increase in the basic product,  plus high shipping costs to get the parts to Canada. I can't imagine what the XL will cost here.

Posted by: @rickm

Judging by the number of people here, on Reddit, Discord and Twitter who have mentioned cancelling their XL preorders and instead getting two bambus (as its still cheaper), yes. It's gotta be hitting them now. Even the P1P comes in cheper than the MK3 for most people when you add shipping, which lets be frank, Prusas shipping prices are borderline obscene for most of the world, but from what I can understand thats completely out of their control short of contracting a distribution company instead of the instistance on doing everything in house.

RE: Prusa Delays

As soon as I need an enclosure, I would not pick a bedslinger 😉

They go to great lengths to stiffen up the whole design, and you need a huge box. Corexy/Makerbot/Ultimaker designs have stiffness inbuilt and can be easily enclosed, there have long been boxy printers in the Mk3 price range that can be easily enclosed. The strength of i3 is relative cheapness of the frame, no point building a box that costs as much as the printer. 3k for an i3 is a joke, but I'm sure Prusa knows that. I'm guessing it's not a priority as long as they still struggle to keep up with production. They could go the route of licensing out their brand&production to a north american company, but it's too late for the Mk3. Or offer hardware kits without printed parts to speed up production and save cost.

RE: Prusa Delays

You make good points. Various printer manufacturers have worked with Amazon etc to ensure cost effective delivery mechanisms for their printers in the UK (elegoo, anycubic etc) as well as independents. Even after all these years Prusa still seemingly haven’t made these inroads and I think it’s time they started if they want to be competitive.
At times it’s like they want to create more work for themselves than is necessary.

Posted by: @crab

A Prusa MK3+ assembled with the full Prusa enclosure (with fan) plus a Pi4 or OrangePi5 for Octoprint is $3k from distributors in Canada, where BambuLabs have set up a distribution point in Canada and shipping is included in their $1.5 K price for the X1C. Now the MK3+ is certainly a more robust/reliable product as it has been iterated since MK2 in 2016. However, the XL has yet to come out and you could never hope to achieve the reliability of a 6+ year product in its first showing. If the X1C can print twice as fast as an MK3+ for a model you needed, and you needed the enclosure (think ABS parts) , you could potentially gain a 4x gain from the X1C. Even if not as reliable, that'd be hard to ignore. Their AMS system also seems pretty good for a first iteration. The prices have gone up significantly in Canada for Prusa stuff and likely it is both a price increase in the basic product,  plus high shipping costs to get the parts to Canada. I can't imagine what the XL will cost here.

Posted by: @rickm

Judging by the number of people here, on Reddit, Discord and Twitter who have mentioned cancelling their XL preorders and instead getting two bambus (as its still cheaper), yes. It's gotta be hitting them now. Even the P1P comes in cheper than the MK3 for most people when you add shipping, which lets be frank, Prusas shipping prices are borderline obscene for most of the world, but from what I can understand thats completely out of their control short of contracting a distribution company instead of the instistance on doing everything in house.

 

RE: Prusa Delays

which lets be frank, Prusas shipping prices are borderline obscene for most of the world

Just to be a bit fair, we don't set the shipping prices. We work with various shipping companies to get fixed rates and we periodically visit them to work on getting the best rates. The hard fact is that the printers are shipped via international air freight and it is expensive, but those costs for it is out of our hands. 

We also do sell on amazon where you can buy a printer on their services, so that could also be an option and use prime for free shipping as well. 

In regards to the rest of this discussion, it is providing useful constructive criticism and feedback that is taken into account. Honestly I am glad to see that it is a healthy discussion and not turning into flame wars. 

RE:

Posted by: @same-old-shane

which lets be frank, Prusas shipping prices are borderline obscene for most of the world

Just to be a bit fair, we don't set the shipping prices. We work with various shipping companies to get fixed rates and we periodically visit them to work on getting the best rates. The hard fact is that the printers are shipped via international air freight and it is expensive, but those costs for it is out of our hands. 

We also do sell on amazon where you can buy a printer on their services, so that could also be an option and use prime for free shipping as well. 

 

In regards to the rest of this discussion, it is providing useful constructive criticism and feedback that is taken into account. Honestly I am glad to see that it is a healthy discussion and not turning into flame wars. 

Thanks for posting here, genuinely great to see you guys are listening to feedback, although appreciate some of it might be a bit tough to hear!

You mentioned you sell on Amazon but I assume thats only in a few specific locations? For example in the UK if you search for any Prusa printers or parts on Amazon all you get is cheap knockoffs. From what I can see on the Prusa site shipping to the UK is £24.86 for a MK3S+ using DHL Economy. Shipping to Australia is $202.19, Canada is $182.44. 

In comparison everyone else seems to be able to do it at a fraction of the cost. Obviously Prusa has the disavantage of having most of the logistics being located in 1 place, and given the purchase of Printed Solids the plan there is to bring some of those costs down for customers in North America. I guess my feedback on this is that something needs to be done to reduce the price globally. Other manufacturers have Amazon fulfilment across practically the whole world, is there a reason Prusa cant/wont do that?

RE: Prusa Delays

Thanks Shane for posting here, good to know someone at Prusa is in touch. Can't wait to get my hands on the printer, and thanks to the delay my savings goal for it is reached. So I don't have to feel bad when presenting it to the government (aka woman I love, whose reaction will be "Very nice dear, but how much did it cost?").

RE: Prusa Delays

At least token of appreciation for delays could be a good opportunity to show supporters that you understand their frustration.
Eg free 0.4mm nozzle, or something similar / discount code for prusa cover etc.

RE: Prusa Delays

I'll take Jo's signature with "thanks for waiting" on the frame 😉 

But seriously, something like limited-time (first 6 months would probably cover all pre-order customers) extra Prusameters for makes with the XL would go a long way and help Prusa establish confidence in print quality (assuming it will be fine). Make/month limits could still apply so it's not exploited. Possibly some more Prusameters for multicolor/multimaterial XL prints. Or "XL print of the day" shown on front page, XL only contests etc. -> Almost free advertising.
I've been wondering why they don't use printables more to push their products, it's a free service so nobody could blame them if it's not too annoying.

RE: Prusa Delays

I think the actual appreciation was to send the printers on an order of first come first served basis. Joseph comments on the video that first they will send the single heads. This is unfair to the ones that placed  a multihead order. I preorder mine (two heads) on the 18th and after long delays , with scarce updates on the actual progress, i 'm informed that i have to wait for all the single heads to be delivered. I understand that they wait for the beta testers to finish testing the multiple heads but they can at least offer you the option to deliver the printer as a single head and then deliver the second (or multiples and extra board) after the test is finished. 

I have an MK3S with mmu2s and ans SLS and i can wait, but the issue here is customer appreciation and communication. And i would like someone to tell me if the problems were all to the supply chain couldn't they at least prepare some units for the beta testers last year? We are not talking thousands of PS units and boards but enough to perform all the necessary tests? I thing the supply chain is becoming the golden excuse.

Posted by: @martind

At least token of appreciation for delays could be a good opportunity to show supporters that you understand their frustration.
Eg free 0.4mm nozzle, or something similar / discount code for prusa cover etc.

RE: Prusa Delays

I don't wanna defend them but it's not that simple. You need suppliers that can deliver components within specs reliably on time and at scale. These are the components that need to be tested. Of course you can build beta units with anything you can grab, and test various things on them. We can assume that's what they did in-house, where everybody knows how the printers work and has the means to fix them. But a lot of new issues can and will pop up in the final production units when final suppliers change. Imagine a bearing fails in every tenth printer they ship, and those printers have to be taken apart to replace it. Things like that kill companies. Now throw in the sheer number of components (electronics and mechanical, down to screws or SMD components for the boards they build in house). Better for us to wait now than get these issues, and maybe lose the company that provides the support and software framework.

RE: Prusa Delays

The delay for multiheads is due to the test of multihead printers. It needs time. 

Posted by: @tsamisacytanet-com-cy

I think the actual appreciation was to send the printers on an order of first come first served basis. Joseph comments on the video that first they will send the single heads. This is unfair to the ones that placed  a multihead order. I preorder mine (two heads) on the 18th and after long delays , with scarce updates on the actual progress, i 'm informed that i have to wait for all the single heads to be delivered. I understand that they wait for the beta testers to finish testing the multiple heads but they can at least offer you the option to deliver the printer as a single head and then deliver the second (or multiples and extra board) after the test is finished. 

I have an MK3S with mmu2s and ans SLS and i can wait, but the issue here is customer appreciation and communication. And i would like someone to tell me if the problems were all to the supply chain couldn't they at least prepare some units for the beta testers last year? We are not talking thousands of PS units and boards but enough to perform all the necessary tests? I thing the supply chain is becoming the golden excuse.

Posted by: @martind

At least token of appreciation for delays could be a good opportunity to show supporters that you understand their frustration.
Eg free 0.4mm nozzle, or something similar / discount code for prusa cover etc.

 

RE: Prusa Delays

I'm not saying to use off the self components. I'm assuming that they already had their suppliers of various components and there problem was not finding new ones but for them to match the demand. The only problem which needed new suppliers was the PS unit which was solved last summer, if i'm not mistaken. In this case you can use the limited number of the components they can provide you with (and which are the same ones that will ne included in the final units) and complete a number of  units for beta testing. Also about the fact that the multiheads need testing. I can understand that. But if the difference between a single head and a two head is just the extra and for the 3+ ones an additional board then what is keeping them from offering the option to get a single head and keep you priority for when the rest of the components are tested and available.

RE: Prusa Delays

I agree with you that for some customers it would be nice to have a single head for the time being. Personally I have other printers, so I'd rather have a tested and working system with all heads included, with no need to take apart half a year in. It would be nice to have a choice, but at this stage I think they're in damage control mode and we have to take what we get.

The real mistake was announcing the thing too early and raising massive expectations amid a global supply crisis.

RE: Prusa Delays

This is where I’d love someone from Prusa to chime in. Watching the Prusa Live it read as though they had a specific manufacturer of some of these parts rather than having multiple manufacturers for everything - which if the case is going to cause serious headaches long term… I’m wondering how diverse their supply chain is based on how they have specced. This is why I was mentioning earlier maybe it’s time to really diversify the suppliers from initial design so that units make their way out of the door faster. For example I’m thinking of the linear rails - Notoriously tricky at the best of times and should have had multiple suppliers and interchangeable manufacturers from day one but seemingly according to josef they only recently looked at alternative manufacturers, unless I misunderstood what was being said. 

This the sort of planning that makes a difference between Bambu and Prusa right now, where Bambu being quite a different product in many ways have a lot of experience through DJI for supply chains etc. so really know how to source and turn product around. 

Posted by: @ntdesign

I don't wanna defend them but it's not that simple. You need suppliers that can deliver components within specs reliably on time and at scale. These are the components that need to be tested. Of course you can build beta units with anything you can grab, and test various things on them. We can assume that's what they did in-house, where everybody knows how the printers work and has the means to fix them. But a lot of new issues can and will pop up in the final production units when final suppliers change. Imagine a bearing fails in every tenth printer they ship, and those printers have to be taken apart to replace it. Things like that kill companies. Now throw in the sheer number of components (electronics and mechanical, down to screws or SMD components for the boards they build in house). Better for us to wait now than get these issues, and maybe lose the company that provides the support and software framework.

RE: Prusa Delays

Thanks for posting here, genuinely great to see you guys are listening to feedback, although appreciate some of it might be a bit tough to hear!

You mentioned you sell on Amazon but I assume thats only in a few specific locations? For example in the UK if you search for any Prusa printers or parts on Amazon all you get is cheap knockoffs. From what I can see on the Prusa site shipping to the UK is £24.86 for a MK3S+ using DHL Economy. Shipping to Australia is $202.19, Canada is $182.44. 

In comparison everyone else seems to be able to do it at a fraction of the cost. Obviously Prusa has the disavantage of having most of the logistics being located in 1 place, and given the purchase of Printed Solids the plan there is to bring some of those costs down for customers in North America. I guess my feedback on this is that something needs to be done to reduce the price globally. Other manufacturers have Amazon fulfilment across practically the whole world, is there a reason Prusa cant/wont do that?

Yes you are correct about the knock off replacement parts and the costs, For the supplies of parts we have, they are split between creating kits, warranty replacements (if needed) and selling replacement parts. If we were to sell the parts on amazon, we would need a massive amount of spare parts in order to ship them out. Later on down the road, that might happen, but that is for someone else with a big brain to figure out. 

You are correct about printed solid, that does help with consumer costs, shipping and shipping times. Who knows if that would be expanded upon to cover more areas but for now there are some alternatives. Unfortunately, my knowledge of alternative places to buy parts are mostly in the US, for the EU.. the places I used to know are closed now. 

RE: Prusa Delays

Posted by: @ntdesign

Thanks Shane for posting here, good to know someone at Prusa is in touch. Can't wait to get my hands on the printer, and thanks to the delay my savings goal for it is reached. So I don't have to feel bad when presenting it to the government (aka woman I love, whose reaction will be "Very nice dear, but how much did it cost?").

You know, the delays are not an enjoyment. Believe me, we would love to have it out already, BUT that is a bit of a small silver lining for the consumer, they have more time to save up for it like you said.