Prusa Delays  

RE: Prusa Delays

Do you think Prusa would have lost a number of customers to Bambu Labs? I mean BL are certainly a threat at this point, no?

RE: Prusa Delays

Posted by: @iftibashir

Do you think Prusa would have lost a number of customers to Bambu Labs? I mean BL are certainly a threat at this point, no?

Judging by the number of people here, on Reddit, Discord and Twitter who have mentioned cancelling their XL preorders and instead getting two bambus (as its still cheaper), yes. It's gotta be hitting them now. Even the P1P comes in cheper than the MK3 for most people when you add shipping, which lets be frank, Prusas shipping prices are borderline obscene for most of the world, but from what I can understand thats completely out of their control short of contracting a distribution company instead of the instistance on doing everything in house.

RE: Prusa Delays

Defintely.

I think Bambu Labs has raised the bar on what to expect on a printer for a certain price.

RE:

I don't know why everyone compares the XL to Bambu Lab printers. Bambu Lab has no printer which is comparable to the XL. Their printers are totally different from the XL. Take the printable space... No Bambu Lab printer has that space. 

In the best case you can compare the Bambu Lab printers with the MK3i. This is the XL forum.

RE: Prusa Delays

Lost me for sure (not completely, I still keep preorder) - I ordered BL with money I spared for Prusa, will test BL first and check it possibilities, I like lot of implementations BL did (compact printer with possibility of 4 colors - filament kept in drydock, lidar for measurements of first layer, quick swap of nozzle). So I am waiting for Prusa order completion, if I will be satisfied with BL before I receive order from Prusa, I will order another BL rather. The waiting time for Prusa is longer and longer and seems to be no end there. Looks like company is losing their breath due to highly competitive printer startups everywhere around.

Posted by: @iftibashir

Do you think Prusa would have lost a number of customers to Bambu Labs? I mean BL are certainly a threat at this point, no?

RE: Prusa Delays

Buy a MK3i. If you want a Bambu Lab, you don't need an XL

RE: Prusa Delays

Posted by: @georg-4

Buy a MK3i. If you want a Bambu Lab, you don't need an XL

Honest question - why? Why buy an MK3i over a P1P at the same price, or an X1 for slightly more? You get way more for your money, equal if not better quality at higher speeds, etc.

RE: Prusa Delays

But you do net get such a huge print space. If you do not need this print space, you do not need a prusa XL and can go for a MK3 or a Bambu Lab. But be aware about the time, bambu lab is on the market with their printers. 

RE: Prusa Delays

I don’t find replies like this helpful. There is fair criticism being levied at Prusa for their pace of delivering this product, other manufacturers seem to be obtaining parts and getting various printer launches out of the the door. 

Like it or not bambu are now entering as a player in this market and there will be more manufacturers. Their system is new but so was Prusa some years ago… I welcome competition it helps us as consumers with pricing, features and service levels. 

I am keeping my pre order as I want this XL but it doesn’t mean I can’t offer some criticism where I feel it’s due.  

RE: Prusa Delays

Posted by: @christophercuk

I don’t find replies like this helpful. There is fair criticism being levied at Prusa for their pace of delivering this product, other manufacturers seem to be obtaining parts and getting various printer launches out of the the door. 

But Bambu Lab does not make a printer with the print space of the XL. So you should not compare apples with pears. It is ok to criticim prusa for the delay of the delivering, but then you should compare it to an MK3 not the XL. The Xl is a complete different printer. What many here do is like comparing a truck to a car. 

RE: Prusa Delays

The best summary so far... i agree 100%

RE: Prusa Delays

Prusa was never really the company with best price-to-features ratio (at some point Mk3 was close though). You buy one for the customer support, software implementation, upgradeability, user base, open source etc. It is a reliable standard printer you can recommend to a beginner, for a mostly frustration-free learning experience, and which has the features you would expect today. In my case also because I want to support a European company with high social standards that does tons for the community, and I just like them. Can't stay mad at them for long, but after MMU, if I'd send money their way for a new product I'd do it with the notion it could end with a total clusterfuck. Bambu labs took what was there and made a very cool and streamlined implementation, so fair enough if people buy their printers. I totally get it. To be honest it was about time the market got shaken up again, but personally I see them as more of a threat to the likes of Creality (people might get a Bambu instead of a second Ender). But if every company was like them, 3D printing would not be the affordable hobby we have today. E.g. there is no chance in hell they'd have that level of slicer without Prusa investments in development.

Prusa fucked up the release of the Xl, exactly as they fucked up MMU, initial Mk3 shipping etc. They'll do it again. And again. Eventually it will be good, and over several years become better and better. You'll be able to repair and upgrade it for many years (still run my upgraded Mk2s daily, which by the way was considered way too expensive in comparison at the time). They'll never milk you for spare parts or force you into a cloud. All that even if in two years there will be clones at half price on Aliexpress. Because of the people behind the products and how their psychology works. If that annoys you, go ahead and buy something else. It's a free market 😉 
Btw, delivery of my new, quite standard car (from a major brand) was delayed just now by another 3 months to a total of 19. So much for supply chain.

RE: Prusa Delays

Posted by: @ntdesign

Prusa fucked up the release of the Xl, exactly as they fucked up MMU, initial Mk3 shipping etc.

you forgot the mettalsheets 🙂

i still have my preorder of the first minutes running.And i hope to get it sometime in summer.

What bothers me the most - we still have absolutely no clue what this thing will be capable of.

Speed of the core XY, the hotend - who much can it melt/s ? and so on.If they don't know the specs by now - there will be no friday this year..

RE: Prusa Delays

Posted by: @pintie

 

Posted by: @ntdesign

Prusa fucked up the release of the Xl, exactly as they fucked up MMU, initial Mk3 shipping etc.

you forgot the mettalsheets 🙂

i still have my preorder of the first minutes running.And i hope to get it sometime in summer.

 

What bothers me the most - we still have absolutely no clue what this thing will be capable of.

Speed of the core XY, the hotend - who much can it melt/s ? and so on.If they don't know the specs by now - there will be no friday this year..

The fact that the specs have still not been released is a massive red flag for me, especially when the quality of the prints shown off at their trade fare booth were so poor. 

RE:

Oh yes did I forget the metal sheets 🤣 🤣 🤣 

Yeah the print quality...isn't great. But then again, when the time is up and I'm not convinced I can (and will) still bail out of my preorder.

In the grand scheme of things I'm worried there is not enough market for the XL, and it might kill Prusa and along with it all the benefits they bring to my hobby. Software development at this scale is seriously expensive, nobody will do it for fun and giggles. Coming up with a Mk4 might overall have been a better idea. I see the XL mainly as a high end hobbyist printer (e.g. for model train or RC plane or cosplay stuff), for people with deep enough pockets. There is a reason the Mk3 is so successful in professional/educational applications, it's simple, reliable and no-nonsense. No fiddling with settings if you just want to print always with the same material. XL has a lot of features e.g. architects will not need. For prototyping (where you might need 2 heads for support material), there might be faster (possibly also bigger) and cheaper options (engineers might prefer having more but cheaper printers). For me personally, the size is a bit of a problem, as I don't have much space and don't really need the volume. However I "need" multi material, and of course you cannot fit 3+ heads in a much smaller printer. If I could give them one advice, it would be to develop an updated printer with the same qualities as the Mk3 but lower price. Possibly sacrificing upgradeability, because lets face it after 3-4 years it makes more sense to buy a new printer.

RE: Prusa Delays

The problem with releasing a MK4 (which at this stage I'm still assuming will be a similar itterational jump as MK2 to MK3 was) is that from a marketing perspective they're screwed. It wont be the 'fresh new product' kind of hype they need, and will instantly be compared to the Bambu by all reviewers, who will only be able to cite Prusas reputation and support as reasons for its higher price tag. Meanwhile they've got to try and explain the pros around it being slower and clunkier than several other options out there.

I think the only way Prusa survives this is if they get a brand new printer out the door. A CoreXY with higher speed and performance than the i3 range, but matching its price point. It's not a big leep or even a big technical challenge, we've had printers like the Hypercube around for a long time and they arent much difference price wise to building an i3.

RE: Prusa Delays

And yet you could argue that makerspaces and schools with 10+ Mk3s in the room might be inclined to get Mk4s when those start failing. Also kits are sometimes actually what people want in education applications.

The VW Golf has been a boring old-fashioned car for as long as I can remember, but people still keep buying them. That company keeps banking on their reputation for good, reliable and cheap quality cars, even though they threw all that out the window 20 years ago. Similarly, Prusa have a wide user base and good reputation, it would be wise to hold on to that. Heck, I'll always keep at least one boring old printer around that just works (to fix my fancier stuff when that doesn't work, which is all the time). They do have ways to make production cheaper, e.g. Mk3s were sold so often that injection molding might have made sense in hindsight. Or they could make the display optional, ditch the messy hotend wiring, etc.

RE: Prusa Delays

Oh I'm not suggesting they wont sell - they will. But not like a new printer. When someone needs another one, they'll obviously pick up a MK4 instead of a MK3. But I doubt many will go out of their way to buy it because its new, vs buying it when they need it.

Injection molding is something Prusa has been moving towards, and a Mk4 should probably make use of that to speed up production. They can still make the stls available for people to print, but would reduce the initial production costs. 

At a guess I'd say the mk4 will move to the same controller board as the mini, use injection molded parts, use a revo compatible nozzle, probably updated bed leveling, and maybe some frame tweaks to improve rigidity. If thats all we get its never going to be a 'must buy', just a nice upgrade.

RE:

Full agreement on the controller. Don't you think they'll use the XL head in a potential Mk4? It seems like wasted development to not use it. Also would (finally) improve servicing and bed levelling by a huge margin, plus it's a massive perk for a new printer. Not sure if carrying over the segmented bed would be worth it, but if the XL print head is any good I would be tempted.
Why not leave the rest of the printer the same. They know how to build & ship the frame, probably have cost-optimized the process and it just works. It would potentially allow pushing out a Mk4 relatively fast (if production lines for Mk4 and XL are separate). An optional linear rail upgrade would be interesting, but I don't think a huge fraction of existing customers would care enough to pay for it. I just know so many people who couldn't care less if it's corexy or whatever. Ultimaker style makes more sense anyway for a 25x25 printer in my opinion, but that's religion.

Since you mention it: They have reached a point where they have to decide between healthy growth and aggressively claiming more market share. The community wants healthy growth, otherwise we'll get printers that fail fast so they can sell more. In the long run, that requires a loyal user base to be sustainable (= free advertising, regular recurring sales). But currently they're starting to piss people off.

RE: Prusa Delays

I would expect that some of the delays are precisely due to the Bambu Labs printer. They're reassessing what it takes to make the XL competitive. No doubt they're feeling the sting of not getting the XL to market sooner, but sometimes being the first mover isn't always the advantage it seems like.

Personally, the Bambu machine is too new, too closed source, and too untested to be of that much interest to me. Sure, it's got a lot of cool tricks up its sleeves, but time is the true test of any product of this nature. And there, to echo @ntdesign, Prusa has shone brightly in their curation of new and old devices and giving customers reasonably priced, DIY upgrade paths to the latest features.