What's the next step for Prusa?  

RE: What's the next step for Prusa?

Here the response !

RE: What's the next step for Prusa?

Posted by: @framemanager

Here the response !

That's why I made this post! He brings up some really good points! I hope Prusa proves him wrong soon. 

RE: What's the next step for Prusa?

Appreciated your response in no time...

RE: What's the next step for Prusa?

If the global supply chain is fucked, as Peter Zeihan seems to think it is, then we are all going to have to lay in a supply of spare parts to keep our printers running, at least, in the short term. I would definitely keep my Tronxy X1 operational, since it is all open-source parts, and I can get hot-end components from E3D Online within 24-48 hours, but even they are listing some items as out of stock.

RE:

Sure, the video shows why that particular youtuber doesn't like Prusa printers (or whatever stuff he could call bad about Prusa - we don't even know if this is actually what he thinks). The current success of Bambulab shows there's also a huge community wanting something other than Prusa products.

Does it actually say anything about the Prusa customer pool getting smaller? From what I see, the 3d printing market is expanding, so it might be fine.

Also, Bambulab printers seem fine from what most of reviews say and they are probably good printers, but from what the not-so-lucky users say, their customer support is not in the same league as Prusa support, and the same goes with replacement parts and RMA process. In addition to that, Bambulab printers are proprietary and they use a lot of proprietary parts - some people think this just means other companies can't copy them, but actually it means if Bambulab decides not to sell the parts anymore, or sell them at a crazy price, or just isn't able to sell them because their supply chain is fucked, the printers they made are fucked. Because of this, Bambulab X1 Carbon is still worse than pretty much anything Prusa has ever made for those running business that needs 3D printers to work.

On top of those points, there's now Prusa XL - that pretty much makes the arguments about Prusa not being innovative completely void and the size of its waiting list also proves lots of people still want Prusa

RE: What's the next step for Prusa?

if Bambulab decides not to sell the parts anymore, or sell them at a crazy price, or just isn't able to sell them because their supply chain is fucked, the printers they made are fucked.

I mean, it's already happening. Those carbon rods in X1C are glued in with epoxy. You literally cannot replace them, they're not meant to be replaced by consumers. Bambu doesn't even sell those rods anywhere and their wiki lacks any mention on how to replace them. They just say how to clean with alcohol and that's it. The bushings are also not mentioned or sold anywhere. This is a consumable part, which makes everything way worse. They scratch, start binding once the carbon dust runs out or anything else and you're forced to send the printer back to the manufacturer. The way these rods are attached and the way surrounding parts are designed, it's apparently a huge hassle to force them out even if there was no glue involved. Some ppl on Bambu forums even stated it's easier to just replace the Y carriages together with the rods, since there's such a high chance of damaging them during disassembly.

These printers are great and really plug and play, letting new makers get into the hobby without being intimidated by all the intricacies of 3D printing. But they're not designed to be easily maintained nor repaired once something goes wrong. The closed source approach and locking certain features behind the cloud also doesn't help.

It's a shame, because the hardware is very nice.

RE:

Indeed. The question is if Bambulab needs to open up the replacement part landscape for its printers or if it can happily expand in a target group which doesn't mind. Ideally for Bambulab they would open up the key replacement parts to at least a number of selected companies. I think that would give commercial users more reliability. I don't see that coming so that is a relief for Prusa I guess. 

What is not yet clear to me is where Prusa is planning to go in the mid term. They clearly expanded into the somewhat more professional sphere with taking over Trilab (and offer also a heated chamber printer now, well suited for professional ABS prints, well out of reach price wise for everyone but the most committed hobby printer) and also push for educational applications, where reliability, safety and a European brand offer additional value. The third thing I see is going into higher value specialized niches with the XL, ie large build size (yet hopefully reliable) and tool changer. There is litte competition in this niche so far, nothing with that intended level of ease of use, service and reliability at least. 

I would just hope, Prusa will still go for the next true generation change for the MK3s, ie an MK4. Personally I am not so invested in the idea of upgradability if thats the cost for getting a core xy with input shaper are a true alternative to it, and how they are calling it in the end. But this very market segment, the pervious core of Prusa's business will be taking the most heat, with intense Chinese competition that can compete on both, quality and price. (Not Ender but Bambulab and possible other companies following their business model)

RE: What's the next step for Prusa?

I think, Today is  the new  Friday!

Joan...

RE: What's the next step for Prusa?

Let's hope for good news.  

Posted by: @joantabb

I think, Today is  the new  Friday!

Joan...

 

RE: What's the next step for Prusa?

there have been leaks...  

no doubt some folk will criticise everything!

regards Joan

RE: What's the next step for Prusa?

So, I just watched the intro video from Prusa on the MK4 and I've looked over the features and specs. Here are my thoughts (don't burn me at the stake):

The Nextruder:

1. Heavier appearing design using planetary gears and incorporated board which is probably why the z-rods thickness was increased (deflection). The 3D printed z brackets look beefier, but the belt looks the same.
2. Fully automated first layer calibration? What did the MK3s have? Partially automated? Maybe that's why anything in the corners of the mk3s bed turns out like shit without mods to y-plate. How many locations will the nozzle touch during auto leveling? How much time will this add to the auto leveling time?
3. No Live Adjust? How do you calibrate the load cell? Live Load Cell Adjust? LOL
4. Always perfect first layer? That's a bold statement, but we'll see!
5. Interchangeable nozzles? That's pretty cool, but how many people are changing nozzle sizes that frequently since the introduction of Arachne? I only swap to 0.4mm if I absolutely need the detail (very thin shims, etc). Usually Arachne does just good!
6. Brass ring gear? Great self lubricating material, but I wonder how it'll hold up the constant retractions during daily printing. It is softer and I wonder if the backlash will impact print quality.
7. Large drive gear with the two ball bearings is a great idea. Utilizing the bearings to press the filament into the gear means more surface area is utilized and the should help a lot with skipping. I like this.

The Board

1. Accelerometer? I didn't see any mention about that on the Nextruder improvements? Later addition? Upgrade costs?Wifi ready, very cool!USB-C? What's this for? Maybe you all know.

Color Screen

1. Not a touch screen. Looks cool I guess. I like the print preview aspect, but on a screen that small it'll be hard to see the details.
2. Supports qr codes? Maybe for support links to their website? Parts? I like this idea.USB-A port. I prefer cards, but this is a nice option.

Input shaper - High Speed Printing

1. It pays to point out that high speed printing is not supported in the current firmware, so I guess it's still be tested.
2. High speed print times are shown in draft mode with no nozzle size called out. They don't state what nozzle size/layer height they're using with the MK3 example print either. That's useful information when deciding to purchase.
3. The main frame has been changed to add stiffness, but the y-axis area looks about the same as the mk3s. Even if this printer can print faster, the lack of an enclosure is going to severely limit the chances of successful prints with engineering materials.

Noise

1. 44db? Big deal, I print in stealth mode like 99% of the time with my Mk3s Prusas and they're damn quiet.

Final thoughts:

It's definitely an improvement over the MK3s. However, lets compare it to Bambulabs, because it's the right thing to do:

• The Kit is $800. You have to build the printer yourself and you still don't get an enclosure. The P1P is fully assembled and has the structure and option to PRINT your own custom enclosure. Prusa's enclosure is another $350 and at that point you're in X1C territory which is still far superior when it comes to included features/specs.
• The fully assembled version is a $1,100 bed slinger. No fancy aluminum enclosure, no lidar, no camera, no backdoor poop chute, etc. This printer would've killed it a year ago. Its features (open source or not) just aren't there for me to justify buying when the P1P and X1C exist.
• This printer reminds me a lot of how Toyota does their improvements to their vehicles year to year. Small, conservative changes that have a low chance of impacting the performance negatively. Prusa is hanging on by dear life to their well earned reliability, but that can only get you so far. They're behind the wheel with the MK4 and at this point I'm convinced that the only people buying the MK4 are just fans of Prusa. I have to admit the video got me a little excited, but once I started breaking it down, I realized it's just not worth it to me from an investment standpoint. It pays to say that I don't even own a Bambulabs printer, but I would still buy one over the Mk4 and I own several Mk3's.

Complacency is the Killer of Organizations 

RE:

Posted by: @degreeless_engineering

So, I just watched the intro video from Prusa on the MK4 and I've looked over the features and specs. Here are my thoughts (don't burn me at the stake):

The Nextruder:

1. Heavier appearing ...

...

• This printer reminds me a lot of how Toyota does their improvements to their vehicles year to year. Small, conservative changes that have a low chance of impacting the performance negatively. Prusa is hanging on by dear life to their well earned reliability, but that can only get you so far. They're behind the wheel with the MK4 and at this point I'm convinced that the only people buying the MK4 are just fans of Prusa. I have to admit the video got me a little excited, but once I started breaking it down, I realized it's just not worth it to me from an investment standpoint. It pays to say that I don't even own a Bambulabs printer, but I would still buy one over the Mk4 and I own several Mk3's.

Complacency is the Killer of Organizations 

Those are very good arguments, DegreelessEngeneering!

questions, ideas ... as I am not native English and seem not to understand everything correctly.

nextruder

1: Absolutely agree

2: What are those issues you are talking about? Problems with parts printed on the end of the bed? I never experienced any noticable problems on the end of the bed, so I'm just curious if I missed something. Also, may I ask what mods on the Y-plate you are talking about?

3: what is the "load cell"?

4: My idea also.

5: I would use the 0.6-nozzle also, but as I regulary need to print CF-materials, I need the stronger X-nozzle and Prusa only sells them in 0.4 ...I can order it at E3D directly but shipping and taxes are expensive when ordering from the UK since Brexit. Ordering that nozzle locally is expensive. Might have to do it anyway.

6: hasn't it allways been brass?

7: indeed, great idea and improvement. Will printing with TPU even simpler (allthough I do'n experience any issues for now with my MK3s printing 40D )

Board:

AFAIK, the idea of input shaper is implemented in the software, using general data as weight, ... of the MK4-printhead.
The printer has NO sensor to measure vibrations and adapt on the fly.
I've read somewhere that there is supposed to be a possibility to add a sensor on the board ... but that's all "to be"

Screen:

Again, read somewhere that the screen is actually a touchscreen(hardware), but without the possibility to use it as such (for now).

High Speed Printing: I'm sure the shown print will be "legit" ... but as we say in my language: this is as comparing apples with pears. Never is there mentioned what nozzle is used, as you stated correctly, nor material. And it's easy when to comparing with the slowest print.

It's the same as when they compared the XL in size .. with the Prusa Mini LOL
They should compare it with other "competitors" as a MK3s, Bambu, Creality ...

Bambulab:
They do a fabulous job in making a very decent printer, copying existing technologies and even bringing it a step further.
One fo the biggest pro's for me, is the fact that BambuLab "kicked the Bee's nest". This keeps people as Prusa on their toes. Competition improves quality (and loweres prices)
One additional idea though.
As with many things out of China, there is a concern with data.
We do not have to point fingers to the Asian country as this happens elsewhere as well (*KOF* google *kof*).
But it seems they have implemented a system wich makes you send your prints, files, ... to the BambuLab-servers, which are they redirected to your printer.
(I think Prusa is going to do the same with Prusa Connect).

This gives them quite a lot of data .. in a sneaky way .. and that, I do not like.

RE: What's the next step for Prusa?

Posted by: @ludodg

 

3: what is the "load cell"?

 

A loadcell is a sensor that allows you to measure weight, pressure, etc.

The weight or pressure is converted by the sensor into an analog voltage.

That can then be used by the controller board.

RE: What's the next step for Prusa?

In addition to that, Bambulab printers are proprietary and they use a lot of proprietary parts - some people think this just means other companies can't copy them, but actually it means if Bambulab decides not to sell the parts anymore, or sell them at a crazy price, or just isn't able to sell them because their supply chain is fucked, the printers they made are fucked. Because of this, Bambulab X1 Carbon is still worse than pretty much anything Prusa has ever made for those running business that needs 3D printers to work.