RE: Improving printer platform stability

To quote an old internet axiom, "Pics or it didn't happen".

(Really, I'm really curious to see how it looks.) 😉

RE: Improving printer platform stability

Oh, regarding paver stones... First some backstory:

When applying the MK3S mod to my MK3 I elected to use the quality time with tools to do some other mods. I applied these rigid feet with felt pads, 6 places: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3082188 Where I had the printer at the time (on an ESD mat on an old-school tanker desk which is my electronics workbench) I actually heard less noise. Then I got a workbench for the basement that instead of having a rock-solid desk, used a cantilevered design. The printer used that desk surface as a sounding board... I could hear the printer on the first floor. 🙁

So, I thought I would try the paver mod to increase the amount of mass the printer would have to move before sounding on the desk. I picked up a 16" square, smooth top, concrete paver at Lowes for $4, applied 8 of the leftover 1" felt furniture feet to the underside. Then slipped it under my MK3S. Now I can't hear it upstairs anymore.

So, my experience is the paver mod seems to help cut noise even with just using (inexpensive) felt pads for elastic dampening. (Plus it moved the printer up a couple inches so accessing the nozzle is a little easier.)

RE: Improving printer platform stability

Posted by: bobstro

I "temporarily" relocated my Mk3 to an old 19 inch audio rack during some renovation work. I had to knock out the back for depth, but the printer otherwise fit surprisingly well, with the feet fitting just inside the shelf boundary. The result with my top-mounted lighting panels is unexpectedly stunning, and my superior has gone from complaining how tacky the printer looks to praising the new look. I have to admit I'm also quite pleased with it. I've got a 3/4 enclosure that blocks breezes nicely, holds a wee bit of heat in (helpful in winter) and further silences an already quiet printer.

The problem is that the surface is not nearly as solid as the magazine-laden table I used previously. I reinforced the now-open backed rack with some over-engineered corner braces, and it's satisfyingly stable. The printer itself sits atop a 1/2 inch thick plywood shelf on adjustable peg mounts. I'd like to make it more solid. The noise levels are good, and I'm only seeing a little ringing on Y, so this isn't urgent so much as something that's bothering me. I've considered one or more of:

1. Replacing the little pegs with an over-engineered bracket screwed into both the shelf and rack sides.
2. Replacing the felt deadening pads I installed previously with Sorthobane 1in isolation feet.
3. Dropping a paver stone along the lines of what @martin-m25 used under the printer.

My thinking is that reducing sway is the most important factor, so anchoring the printer chassis to a stable surface will be best. A heavy paver eliminates the shelf vibration, and the brackets anchor the shelf to the sides. I want to ask if there were any other suggestions. 

The room itself has a smoke detector, but I'm also looking into flame retardant applications for the inside surfaces. I'm not too worried about the Prusa, but if there's a non-carcinogenic, easy-to-apply solution, I want to look into it. It would be nice to preserve the wood look, at least outside of the printer bay.

I'm considering a drop cloth for the back if I ever really want to print at elevated ambient temps.

Any and all suggestions appreciated!

"Superior" as in S/O?

Yes, Pictures.

RAH

RE: Improving printer platform stability

Racks I've used often would have diagonal bracing applied in the hidden spaces to stop the "racking".  Sometimes had to put a 6 or 8U panel in mid rack or a full shelf bolted in if the weight was higher up and the rack was one of the flimsy single rail variety.  

As for fire / heat suppression:  the foil backed marine and engine compartment materials work quite well. They'd also seal the vented side panels in the typical cabinets out there. 

RE: Improving printer platform stability

Posted by: Tim

Racks I've used often would have diagonal bracing applied in the hidden spaces to stop the "racking".  Sometimes had to put a 6 or 8U panel in mid rack or a full shelf bolted in if the weight was higher up and the rack was one of the flimsy single rail variety.  

This is a faux-wood "stereo cabinet", so not a proper server rack. My original plan was to get a proper server rack (thus the temporary plan for this move) but it seems anything over 27U is 32" deep, which will be way too big for my space. 24" is perfect, but now I like the extra height.

It did have a pegb0ard material (forgot the name) back that was quite rigid, but I had to remove that for depth. I have nailed an 8" strip back in along the bottom along with my corner braces, and could put another 16" or so back on below the printer.

As for fire / heat suppression:  the foil backed marine and engine compartment materials work quite well. They'd also seal the vented side panels in the typical cabinets out there. 

That would probably work as well here. I'll look for that, thanks.

RE: Improving printer platform stability

 

Posted by: Sembazuru

[...] I applied these rigid feet with felt pads, 6 places: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3082188

I've got those mounted on the Mk3 now with the felt pads. They really fixed the printer to the old table.

[...] So, I thought I would try the paver mod to increase the amount of mass the printer would have to move before sounding on the desk. I picked up a 16" square, smooth top, concrete paver at Lowes for $4, applied 8 of the leftover 1" felt furniture feet to the underside. Then slipped it under my MK3S. Now I can't hear it upstairs anymore.

I had not considered felt pads on the paver as well. I keep going back and forth between fixing the paver to the shelf and isolating it with the Sorthobane isolation lifters. I suppose for the price I should just try them incrementally. I'll try paver felt pads, then Sorthobane. If those aren't satisfactory, I'll work up some braces to fix the shelf rigidly to the walls and repeat.

And yes, "superior" is my SO/SWMBO. 🙂 Getting her seal of approval was an unexpected bonus and she now says my office looks nice. Moving some filament spools into the rack helped make it all look more organized, and the lighting looks more built-in instead of bolted-on. She hated it before.

Pics will follow when I get home. It's nothing spectacular, but far better than I expected. 

RE: Improving printer platform stability

Posted by: bobstro

Gah... the stupid forum software dumped my previous version. Let's try this again...

 

Posted by: Sembazuru

[...] I applied these rigid feet with felt pads, 6 places: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3082188

I've got those mounted on the Mk3 now with the felt pads. They really fixed the printer to the old table.

[...] So, I thought I would try the paver mod to increase the amount of mass the printer would have to move before sounding on the desk. I picked up a 16" square, smooth top, concrete paver at Lowes for $4, applied 8 of the leftover 1" felt furniture feet to the underside. Then slipped it under my MK3S. Now I can't hear it upstairs anymore.

I had not considered felt pads on the paver as well. I keep going back and forth between fixing the paver to the shelf and isolating it with the Sorthobane isolation lifters. I suppose for the price I should just try them incrementally. I'll try paver felt pads, then Sorthobane. If those aren't satisfactory, I'll work up some braces to fix the shelf rigidly to the walls and repeat.

And yes, "superior" is my SO/SWMBO. 🙂 Getting her seal of approval was an unexpected bonus and she now says my office looks nice. Moving some filament spools into the rack helped make it all look more organized, and the lighting looks more built-in instead of bolted-on. She hated it before.

Pics will follow when I get home. It's nothing spectacular, but far better than I expected. 

I like your thinking about the paver and the sound deadening.  I may have to replace my 2" insulation foam with a paver.  I would lean toward the Sorbothane isolation dampers.  My dad used to use one called EAR dampeners for machinery.  Looks like the same thing.

https://www.rathbun.com/mf-1010-blue-mounting-feet-p-619.html

RAH

RE: Improving printer platform stability

Posted by: RAHRAH
I like your thinking about the paver and the sound deadening.  I may have to replace my 2" insulation foam with a paver.  I would lean toward the Sorbothane isolation dampers.  My dad used to use one called EAR dampeners for machinery.  Looks like the same thing.

1. More mass will reduce vibration (makes sense).
2. Bonding the printer to the paver mass using felt feet will effectively add mass to the printer. Bolting it together would be better, but I'm not there yet.

What I'm not clear on is whether anchoring the paver itself to the shelf or isolating it will be more beneficial. The options seem to be:

1. Leave the peg-mounted shelf as-is and isolate the paver from the shelf using Sorthobane feet. (Must calculate how many are needed for a 17lb/7/7Kg paver + printer.)
2. Fix shelf to rack sides and use felt feet on paver to bond printer+paver+rack into one body. My concern is that all the other stuff in the rack will vibrate if I go this route.

Here are some pics of the current work-in-progress. Here's the overview that put me in good standing with the Director of Decoration:

 Here's one of the 4 corner brackets I used to restore some rigidity after removing the back panel, along with some ad-hoc cable management:

RE: Improving printer platform stability

That looks very nice!

I used 8 Sorbothane feet on my MK3 on top of a 16" paver. I thought it dampened some of the ringing I had but they're a little pricey. On my MK3S I have another paver, but I bought these gripping feet instead. Hoping that planting the printer to the paver will help more than the soft Sorbothane. Never thought to try putting a second set of feet under the paver. These are cheap enough that I'll have to give it a go! My first printer is on a used AV cart, it's 42" tall plus the 2" paver so it's a good height for me and my filament storage boxes and tools fit on the shelves below. The MK3S/MMU2S is so much larger that I'm hunting for a larger AV cart or something to hold it all. Never thought to look for a stereo cabinet!

Is there a link to images of how you mounted the lights? I bought some 24v DC LED lights off Amazon and I was planning on printing light mounts by modding the model of the filament spool arm that Prusa supplied with the MK3 so I can just clip them on top. I'd be open to different ideas though.

RE: Improving printer platform stability

Regarding putting the felt pads on the underside of the paver in my instance, the main reason I did that was just to protect the surface of the desktop where my printer it. The paver that I got, while smooth on the top, isn't perfectly smooth on the bottom, probably because it doesn't need to be for the intended application. I used felt feet only because that is what I had on hand, not because I did any thinking at all about acoustic dampening. Other feet might be better. (Cork feet? Elastomer feet?)

Trying to think through the forces in play (quick disclaimer: I'm not now, nor ever have been a mechanical engineer) here. What would probably work the best is something that has a little bit of give to keep high frequencies from propigating through it, but is stiff enough to allow the surface below to provide support for large amplitudes at low frequencies. Additionally, the material should provide damping to reduce ringing. Finally, for our application, the material in "foot" form should be readily available on the market and be inexpensive, or printable with the currently available filaments on the market.

RE: Improving printer platform stability

Posted by: stephen.h14

[...] I used 8 Sorbothane feet on my MK3 on top of a 16" paver. I thought it dampened some of the ringing I had but they're a little pricey. On my MK3S I have another paver, but I bought these gripping feet instead. Hoping that planting the printer to the paver will help more than the soft Sorbothane. Never thought to try putting a second set of feet under the paver.

I need to run out for a 16" paver and the new Sorbothane feet arrive tomorrow. I ordered the 1" round pads.I'll let you know how it works out.

[...] Is there a link to images of how you mounted the lights? I bought some 24v DC LED lights off Amazon and I was planning on printing light mounts by modding the model of the filament spool arm that Prusa supplied with the MK3 so I can just clip them on top. I'd be open to different ideas though.

They're the cheap 48 LED panels off AliExpress mounted into some GoPro-style holders and Prusa frame mounts that were my 1st successful foray into Fusion 360. The short GoPro arms and M5 knurled knobs are off the collection on Thingiverse. Now that it's in a rack, I'm going to move all the lighting into the rack and clean up the top of the Prusa frame.

RE: Improving printer platform stability

Posted by: Sembazuru

[... ] I used felt feet only because that is what I had on hand, not because I did any thinking at all about acoustic dampening. Other feet might be better. (Cork feet? Elastomer feet?)

I put felt feet on my printer last year and it seemed to anchor it better to the table. Not sure it mattered for print quality but I was happy with the results. 

Trying to think through the forces in play (quick disclaimer: I'm not now, nor ever have been a mechanical engineer) here. What would probably work the best is something that has a little bit of give to keep high frequencies from propigating through it, but is stiff enough to allow the surface below to provide support for large amplitudes at low frequencies. Additionally, the material should provide damping to reduce ringing. Finally, for our application, the material in "foot" form should be readily available on the market and be inexpensive, or printable with the currently available filaments on the market.

I'm going to try leaving felt on the printer itself to grab the paver firmly, but Sorbothane on the paver to isolate it from the rack. I've ordered the 70 duro 1/4 X 1in pads off Amazon. Probably overkill for this application and they may be too stiff, but we'll see.

RE: Improving printer platform stability

Have either of you looked into the link I sent on the E-A-R material shock mounts?  Much cheaper than the Sorbothane ones.

Great for absorbing shock of all kinds of electronics/machinery.

These are grommets, (about the same size as the Sorbothane and .71 each):

https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/3m-aearo-technologies-llc/B-532-1/EAR1331-ND/7605036

Robin

RE: Improving printer platform stability

Posted by: RAHRAH

Have either of you looked into the link I sent on the E-A-R material shock mounts?  Much cheaper than the Sorbothane ones.

Ah, I must've clicked a sub-link. Saw a minimum order of 1,000. Looks like you can order them singly.

Great for absorbing shock of all kinds of electronics/machinery.

These are grommets, (about the same size as the Sorbothane and .71 each):

https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/3m-aearo-technologies-llc/B-532-1/EAR1331-ND/7605036

I found a data sheet for the series. They look like a far cheaper alternative to the Sorbothane (which I just ordered). A few interesting notes...

The harder version at right mention TPE material. I wonder if there's any correlation between flexible Shore hardness and these durometer readings. The next thing that I noticed were the relatively low temperature ranges for the stiffer versions. Looks like we need to watch out for our isolation materials if using enclosures. Not sure what exactly happens if you exceed the recommended range other than losing some damping.

RE: Improving printer platform stability

Many years ago I was fault finding for British Telecom, we had a complaint about Noise in the Director's suite... due to the message waiting light on the phone!!!...    Lights don't generally make noises!   
It turned out that the telephone system was mounted on the other side of the wall from the directors suite, and the relays in the telephone system, which caused the message waiting lights to flash, were making a tiny clicking noise on the telephone system side of the wall, but making a huge sound on the directors side of the wall, (like somebody tapping on a drum skin)
Luckily I was able to move  the telephone system to a wall at 90 degrees to the original wall, and stop the sound transfer.

Cause and effect are odd bed partners.

in the 1980's. I had a Daisywheel printer, that was incredibly antisocial,  the noise it created echoed throughout my house and my adjoining neighbours...   I never managed to cure that printer, but reduced the noise transfer with 50mm foam pad and plywood sheet under the printer.
noisy, slow, but really crisp print quality....
And now we have, modern printers, Far faster, much quieter, similar quality, lower running costs and astronomically more type faces and sizes than the daisywheel. Progress!

😀    Joan

RE: Improving printer platform stability

I have been thinking along the lines of making (Printing) two enclosures which bolt onto the side of the two extrusions which are in front of the Z axis motors and filling these with lead ballast. This would add quite a bit of mass to the printer and if designed so that the enclosures sit on the table and can be locked into the slots in the extrusion allowing for some vertical variation, would work with a wider range of feet.

This would definitely help reduce or even eliminate sway. The heavier the better.

If your really flush with money, Solid Gold would be an even better solution than Lead.  😜 

RE: Improving printer platform stability

Quick update. I finally got the 17x17 17lb paver installed. Cleaned it up sharp edges with a hammer, applied a couple of thick coats of automotive filler primer, then hit the top with enamel and bottom with Plasti-Dip rubber to avoid any dust or chips in the enclosure. I've kept the felt pads on the printer to couple it (that's the word!) to the paver for increased mass to reduce resonance within the printer itself, and isolated the paver from the supporting cabinet shelf with Sorthobane 1/4x1" pads (8) rated at 15-30 lbs each. It is very quiet and seems to be working well. I hear none of the low rumbling from the cabinet walls. Sound is around 45dB standing next to the cabinet mid-print with the door closed.

If you're printing on a large resonating surface, an isolated paver seems to be a good alternative.

RE: Improving printer platform stability

I ended up buying a cheap marble cutting board on Amazon for my printer platform. At some point I plan to inset it into the LACK table but it helps significantly in that regard.

RE: Improving printer platform stability

Posted by: joan.t

[...] in the 1980's. I had a Daisywheel printer, that was incredibly antisocial,  the noise it created echoed throughout my house and my adjoining neighbours...   I never managed to cure that printer, but reduced the noise transfer with 50mm foam pad and plywood sheet under the printer.
noisy, slow, but really crisp print quality....

Back around the same time frame I was coveting an Olivetti "letter quality" daisywheel printer. I probably would have been evicted if I'd actually purchased one. My old 9 pin dot matrix was pretty noisy but not quite as bad. At work we had some super heavy-duty lined enclosures, but the things were still quote loud. I'm amazed at how quiet the Prusa is.