RE: A strategic view of Bambu & Prusa (including benchmarks of all flagship models)
The price for the X1E in Europe is 2700 EUR (2268 EUR excl. VAT). That is about 1150 EUR more than for the X1 Combo. The only real major benefit is the cybersecurity and for that extra price tag for just that is really rather steep. But still, for companies it might be still worth it (and the regular X1 is simply not an option).
I have the feeling Bambulab intententially made it that expensive so that only those who really absolutely need that security buy it and not too many of the common folks. Paying with data, at least in the long run, is a market concept for some Chinese hardware companies after all. Wouldn't surprise me if Bambulab sees potential in that as well in the mid to long term.
Mk3s MMU2s, Voron 0.1, Voron 2.4
RE: A strategic view of Bambu & Prusa (including benchmarks of all flagship models)
RFIDs??? Really??? .. I just used a self-checkout for a 9v battery at a local Walmart and watched myself in full color video on the screen of that terminal.. likely the image was sent to Interpol for AI facial recognition.. The RFID tags might be the least of our concerns.. :).
The whole cloud worry is so hyped when Bambu used it to process their video for spaghetti detection.. Then Prusa came up with its Prusa Connect.. and that argument just vaporized.. . Bambu works super in local LAN mode. I've used it for a month. There is no need to use the cloud, except for firmware updates, and you can do that and then disconnect. You really have to be looking for conspiracy to think evil is happening.
I agree about the noise.. But that is more a factor of speed. Even Prusa's faster motions are noisier. That is, no question, a concern if you are printing in a home environment, especially overnight.
You should watch, if you haven't, the interview Stefan of CNC Kitchen did with the CEO of BambuLabs.. I thought he came off as extremely humble, confident and honest. Was a very good interview and gave me a better insight into BambuLabs than I had before. I've listened to Joseph a few times.. but the Bambu guy was at least as impressive.
Alternatively we can trust that Bambulab has established an RFID chip system just for harmless reasons, for user experience etc. Maybe that is indeed the explanation but its not unreasonable to consider the chance that it isn't. For many if not most that is an acceptable risk, given the compelling offer today, for some it isn't. But like I said, the one argument that is really strong for some customers is cybersecurity. For them Bambulab machines might be simply not an option.
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RFIDs??? Really??? .. I just used a self-checkout for a 9v battery at a local Walmart and watched myself in full color video on the screen of that terminal.. likely the image was sent to Interpol for AI facial recognition.. The RFID tags might be the least of our concerns.. :).
Not sure what that example has to do with anything. RFIDs are used in some other printers to close down the system via firmware. Bambulab does not say it intends to do it but that's what those things are commonly used for on consumption material for printers etc. It is certainly not outlandish to see that as a potential development. It is speculative of course.
The whole cloud worry is so hyped when Bambu used it to process their video for spaghetti detection.. Then Prusa came up with its Prusa Connect.. and that argument just vaporized.. . Bambu works super in local LAN mode. I've used it for a month. There is no need to use the cloud, except for firmware updates, and you can do that and then disconnect. You really have to be looking for conspiracy to think evil is happening.
You can call it hype or ridiculous or whatever. Apparently Bambulab itself saw it is an issue for singificant parts of its potential market, which is probably the sole reason for the existence of the X1E, of which I learned today. Prusa Connect vaporized nothing. Prusa printers aren't calling home unless you actively set it up that way and you can easily remove the Wifi module to make it physically impossible for any attack or leak to occur via Wifi, which in no way compromises anything other than Wifi capability (which is admittedly poor anyway). This is not possible on a regular X1. That's why Bambulab charges 1150 EUR extra for that privilege to have a physical kill switch. Apparently they see a market for that. Pretty much money for something that is just hype and no one needs.
The disconnect without the X1E is not a proper one, just software which is closed source, no way for you to check that it is really tight. This just doesn't cut it with corporate cybersecurity.
I agree about the noise.. But that is more a factor of speed. Even Prusa's faster motions are noisier. That is, no question, a concern if you are printing in a home environment, especially overnight.
My Voron at "Mk4 with input shaper" speeds is fairly silent. It is not just a matter of speed even though at Bambulab speeds with 10k mm/s2 accelerations things will inevitably get loud. The Bambulab is as far as I know however also fairly loud when operated at more moderate speeds.
You should watch, if you haven't, the interview Stefan of CNC Kitchen did with the CEO of BambuLabs.. I thought he came off as extremely humble, confident and honest. Was a very good interview and gave me a better insight into BambuLabs than I had before. I've listened to Joseph a few times.. but the Bambu guy was at least as impressive.
I have. He sounded like a very competent and nice guy but also one who is in for the business. I do think Bambulab is a blessing for the market but I would not want to bet on the mid to longterm business model. It's very much possible that they plan to earn part of their money with user data rather than the the printer itself. They seem very intent on pushing their cloud and maybe that is just for customer binding in a well working own ecosystem but then maybe thats not all.
Mk3s MMU2s, Voron 0.1, Voron 2.4
RE: A strategic view of Bambu & Prusa (including benchmarks of all flagship models)
Bambu labs is well positioned to sit on top of at least half of Prusa’s market. And this happened because Prusa has been slow to innovate,
I'm really curious about this comment. Innovation is often slow and the implication here is that Bambu has innovated quickly. But what has Bambu actually innovated? They've repackaged Klipper and Prusaslicer and a Voron frame. Yes, they've done an amazing job of packaging this in a friendly cost-effective package whish is sadly locked within their walled garden. Is that what we're calling innovation now?
I'm not saying Prusa innovated everything either. They built on Marlin and Reprap. Do people forget this is a 3D printing community and that there isn't a single player creating all this technology. It's everybody sharing their innovations that is propelling things forwards so quickly. The difference really is that Prusa is a contributing member of the community, whereas Bambu is building a walled garden out of the community's work.
If Prusa closed shop tomorrow, I think we'd see very little innovation going forward.
RE: A strategic view of Bambu & Prusa (including benchmarks of all flagship models)
Why does Bambu need to encrypt the log file which can exceed 700+MB? What could they possibly be collecting that needs 700+MB of data? Video would be a guess, but why would video be considered useful? And the CEO has outright said they will never allow the user to access its unencrypted contents? It's my data, I should have to right to choose what I send.
RE: A strategic view of Bambu & Prusa (including benchmarks of all flagship models)
But what has Bambu actually innovated? They've repackaged Klipper and Prusaslicer and a Voron frame. Yes, they've done an amazing job of packaging this in a friendly cost-effective package whish is sadly locked within their walled garden. Is that what we're calling innovation now?
I think you are looking at it from the wrong angle. The Bambulab X1 is in some ways like the iPhone. The iPhone didn't invent too many things itself, but it brought all the things together, with improvements where they mattered, to a very convincing user friendly package, with vertically integrated user experience.
They didn't invent any core technology but they did actually meaningfully improve certain things. The AMS appears to be really the most user friendly and reliable multi-colour unit out there. Without much tinkering or calibrating. It is involving indeed some innovation, and is not merely a copy of some other product on the market. The rest of the innovation has mainly to do with bringing together all parts in a form and shape that they produce a great product that is absolutely plug and print. There are two key aspects. They designed it in a way that it is scalable for mass market production (the machine was designed from bottom upwards with mass producability in mind). So they can be very cost effective, yet, they refused to join the other Chinese companies in their race to the bottom for the lowest possible price for something that prints somehow, but instead aimed for the lowest possible price for a good quality, "just works" machine. That is why the performance is closer to a Voron, maybe in terms of out of the box speed above it, than to an Ender3. The Bambulab is intended to create a market for 3d printers as regular end consumer electronics. Just like a inkjet printer. As far as that is indeed possible with 3d printing at least.
That is also the part that worries me. So far they are in the market share acquisition phase. They better be nice there and I assume they calculate on a tight profit margin (if on any at all). They will want to increase that profit margin once they have established their brand sufficiently and concquered sufficient market share and possibly also volume. How? Only they know but the they have all the tools, closed firmware, super strong encryption, RFID chipped refill material, cloud by default, closed ecosystem ...
Their price points for the current printers certainly are no accident and they do seem to attack Prusa quite directly, now also with the A1/Mini. But I assume that they expect that their strongest worry is not located in Prague but in the mid to long run it is the Chinese competition and that is what is maybe making my worries exaggerated. Ender et al. already jumped the train by trying to copy Bambulabs package on a cheaper price tag. So Bambulab has to keep innovating in a way that attracts customers rather than pushing them away. I don't think they can or plan to compete against Ender et al on price. After all their price model is only possible if you don't spend a whole lot on innovation or quality control.
Mk3s MMU2s, Voron 0.1, Voron 2.4
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Just to clarify i dont have a bambu and i never used one. I have an mk3s with mmu2, an sls1 and now an XL5h. As far as bambu i cant say anything about the quality of the printer outside what im reading. And it seems that they are excellent and fast. People are arguing that the drawbacks are the online approach, the closed ecosystem with "borrowed" technologies and software (prusaslicer) and their proprietary form of their spare parts. All these for me as a consumer don't say much. According with bambu you can print just by using your internal LAN and you loose some features such as the camera. Well in the case of prusa you dont get the option of a camera at all. So you dont even have the option to use it online. I'm rather fond of an opensource ecosystem since it allows me to easily do significant repairs of broken parts and its easier upgradable rather than having a closed box that the only option of upgrades are firmware or another complete purchase. On the other hand the sls1 and XL moved a bit away from that concept. Too much complexity and fabricated parts (this has pros and cons). Neither Prusa nor Bambu are the brains behind klipper, marlin, input shaper etc. Even Prusa slicer began as a fork of another slicer program. So Prusa cannot complain that bambu started their own slicer as a fork from theirs. Prusa until now sold their name as a premium in their prices. For me this is rather overrated. Yes i got good support from them were they would ship faulty parts in no time but every time i faced an issue that could not immediately be solved by the chat support it was frustrating and sluggish. Im still waiting for an issue that i open on the 8th of this month. And im not waiting for a solution but for an email response. Prusa has their customer base. Either tinkerers that want a solid base to start from or people that believe that a 3d printer is a tool that it should work with no hassle. Im the latter and this is the group that is leaking towards companies like bambu. If it wasnt for the toolchanger i would go to another company like bambu. I dont care if it Chinese, European, American or whatever. Their customer approach the past two years on the XL issue was really bad. The printer is nice (thanks god I didn’t get all the major issues reading about out there) , even with the minor issues i have, but it should be better, hassle free and bug free for its price range and long delay. There are some inexplicable issues like the network speeds and their half baked solution of compressing the gcode to be send quicker. They couldn't improve on a wifi module or bus on a 4k printer? Promises about multiple nozzles sizes on a print, input shaper, spool join etc that SHOULD be delivered with the printer and not in the near or far future (now we have some of them in alpha stage) since this was in production for more than 2 years. My opinion is that they sh!t their pants with bambu and they rushed mk4 in front of the XL to keep their customers. To be honest though, there is nothing out there like the XL if you want multimaterial even multicolor. The speed of toolchanging versus the filament changing (from mmu2s comparison) is huuugeee. And no matter how good AMS may be it still suffers of the limitations of one extruder. I mean printing PETG with PLA supports and flex as a part of another material are something far better of what AMS can provide IMHO. But i wouldnt buy it as a single tool printer just for the size or the promise of "prusa support". I hope another company goes with this approach (there are some out there) so as to not have to spend 4k when the time comes for a replacement.
Finally I thing this two years they could easily come with a basic enclosure option given the price range and corexy for of the printer.
RE: A strategic view of Bambu & Prusa (including benchmarks of all flagship models)
But what has Bambu actually innovated? They've repackaged Klipper and Prusaslicer and a Voron frame. Yes, they've done an amazing job of packaging this in a friendly cost-effective package whish is sadly locked within their walled garden. Is that what we're calling innovation now?
I think you are looking at it from the wrong angle. The Bambulab X1 is in some ways like the iPhone.
No I don't think I've got the wrong angle at all. I'm saying the same thing as you. I used the analogy of a walled garden because that's a well known reference to Apple's strategy with the iPhone. And it's terrible for consumers. Apple's phones are expensive, proprietary, near impossible to repair, you can't even easily replace the battery. The EU recently stepped in to force Apple to use a non-proprietary charging cable.
There's nothing wrong with creating a product aimed at consumers rather than tinkerers. That's great. The problem I have is when those products intentionally stifles innovation. The innovation from Prusa or the innovation from Bambu is irrelevant. The majority of innovation comes from the community; students, academics, hobbyists, aftermarket companies.
You make the analogy of an inkjet printer. I'd point out that inkjet printers are notorious for RFID lockouts on their overpriced ink cartridges, with firmware that connects to the cloud and bricks the printer if haven't paid your monthly subscription. A toaster is an appliance. A toaster which is always connected to the cloud with a monthly subscription service and RFID tags on every slice of bread, that's a nightmare.
That is also the part that worries me. So far they are in the market share acquisition phase. They better be nice there and I assume they calculate on a tight profit margin (if on any at all). They will want to increase that profit margin once they have established their brand sufficiently and concquered sufficient market share and possibly also volume. How? Only they know but the they have all the tools, closed firmware, super strong encryption, RFID chipped refill material, cloud by default, closed ecosystem ...
Bambu might not be at Apple levels of evil today, but they've already started down that path. They've taken out patents on well-known 3D printing technology. They have proprietary firmware. They copy code and features when it benefits them but their contributions back are miserly and only made begrudgingly. And noone can convince me Bambu developed their firmware in-house that quickly without approprating code from Marlin or Klipper. It's not credible.
And people (not you) who say things like "I just want to print, I don't care about open source, it's a religion and I'm above all that nonsense". That infuriates me. It's such a short-sighted view. I'd remind those people about farmers who buy tractors. Farmers just want to work their land, so they buy the best tractor they can for the money. But tractors inevitably need repairs, and if the local mechanic can't fix it because John Deere has used proprietary hardware and cryptography, the farmer suffers and indirectly we all do. However many farmers are aware of the issue and fully support both Right To Repair and Open Source. I wish the people who bought 3D printers were as savvy as the farmers.
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I am not saying that iPhones are the best thing consumers have ever seen. I merely said that they were a milesone in mobile phone development. I don't like the inflationary term "disruptive" but they really were. When the iPhone launched it was just so much ahead in terms of user experience to the other alternatives. I am not sure Bambulab is ahead as much but I am reminded at the overall approach and how they focused on delivering a complete and plug and play product of good quality with innovations where they mattered for that experience.
Nothing you say about Apple's phones is necessarily wrong, but they are so popular for a reason and it is not only bragging with overpriced phones that is the foundation of that popularity. I am everything but an Apple fanboy btw. I hate a lot of the things the company is doing but its not all shadow either. In terms of datat privacy for example they are the least offenders among all the others.
I know what inkjet printers are known for, that is why RFID chips on spools are a red flag to me, no matter what they are doing with it today. And yes, everyone has to ask themselve if they want to support a company like Bambulab or not. Regular consumers won't care, tinkerers maybe do or even should.
Mk3s MMU2s, Voron 0.1, Voron 2.4
RE:
You are using a "razor-blade" profit model and extrapolating it to a 3D printer. InkJet printers are as low as $50 here, so they are ensuring the ink cartridge is from their company as they make zero profit from the printer. There is no performance advantage to the user for the RFID in this case. Technology is ethics-neutral. Here it is to prevent non-brand consumables. In the AMS, it is a huge benefit to allow the user to know the filament type and color and not have to configure that. I would go so far as to say it is a feature that *all* filament vendors should employ in their spools and I'd be surprised if Prusa does NOT include that feature on its MMU models in future. Now I'll concede that if Bambu doesn't allow for support of non-Bambu RFIDs, then .. I'll go for the evil theory .. Generally people use a small set of filaments, once they tune their properties. I've printed enough models from a 3MF that was set for PETG and I used PLA. Didn't fail until it released from build plate 1/2 way thru. I think you'll see more RFIDs on filaments in future because of the potential usefulness to the consumer.
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I have never used that feature obviously so I can't comment on how useful it really is. So I assume it is as useful as you describe. That does not change anything I wrote above. Just because the business model is pushed to the extreme with inkjet printers (dirt cheap printers with almost criminally expensive cartridge filled with almost no ink) it doesn't mean that there can't be a space in between.
Bambulab does not only not support non-Bambu RFIDs it also uses extremely strong encryption on theirs to make sure no one can get around that. Pretty interesting for a pure customer comfort feature.
PS: Personally I couldn't care less about the benefits of RFIDs and probably wouldn't buy a printer with RFID reader, simply because of what can be very easily done with it with a simple firmware update, especially if the firmware is completely closed. Even if the company behind it has acted angel like for years prior. I do accept that others have very different opinions on that matter and that is perfectly fine. I mean I am also a guy who has two Voron printers that do not even have any controls on the machine beyond a physical on/off switch. So that's that.
Mk3s MMU2s, Voron 0.1, Voron 2.4
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1) The RFID tag adds value to the user by eliminating any need to tell the printer what is on a roll. In fact, the Bambi printer tracks filament use by roll so that when you later re-install the roll It knows what is on it. This is great innovation by Bambu.
2) I think the paranoia about Bambu later closing their printer to third party filaments is completely unfounded. I have some experience in the area of consumer protection law in the U.S. and locking down the printer subsequent to the purchase would be a “deceptive trade practice” and would certainly result in a class action lawsuit. If they intended to do this ever, they would need to disclose it before the purchase. Certainly they could lock new models of the printer down in the future, but the cat is out of the bag in the current printers.
3) Bambu’s management comes from DJI, and that should be indicative of their modus operandi. DJI does not have a history of playing this type of game with consumers.
4) I see every indication that Bambu is making money on each printer. Compare the P1S or X1C against any other consumer product such as a washing machine, a refrigerator, or an unsubsidized laser printer, etc and you will see that the pricing is comparable as is the technology. Crudely evaluated as dollars per pound or otherwise Bambu isn’t offering a profoundly remarkable deal. They aren’t selling 3D printers for $50. The Bambu printers are no more complicated than a laser printer or dishwasher.
5) Bambu’s CEO is crazy intelligent. He’s an engineer (actually, an astrophysicist). He can do math. I am certain that they looked at a closed-supplies model and determined that the loss of market share from this restriction would not be offset by filament profits from the few who bought into this plan. So they chose the high-road and offered RFID benefits at a very modest price premium per spool. That’s a consumer friendly approach.
There has been a question about whether Bambu has innovated. I’m surprised that this is even a discussion topic. While they didn’t reinvent 3D printing they did materially improve in every dimension to produce a very unique product, namely:
- Lidar first layer scanning to monitor and calibrate printing.
- Pressure transducers to allow managing filament feed.
- Active noise cancelation.
- Resonance/Ringing elimination and self-calibration.
- Very high printing speeds.
- Higher quality prints than Prusa.
- Enclosure (and with X1E a heated enclosure) which is not the norm for lower end machines.
- Very affordable multi-material handling option.
- Cameras on all models, fully integrated into the printer and software.
- Easy snap-in/out nozzles (Starting with A1 model.)
- Attractive, aesthetically pleasing exterior design.
- Attractive, aesthetically engineered user interface (it’s gorgeous) including touch-screen.
- Features that actually work and aren’t all labeled as “Alpha” or “Beta” or are 80% feature complete like Prusa’s whole product line.
- Frequent (often monthly) firmware updates with substantial improvements each time. Plus these are well documented with change logs and known unresolved bugs.)
All in all, Bambu has done an impressive job of moving the lethargic 3D printing industry forward. They are, if anything, saying that “The emperor has no clothes” to Prusa.
RE: A strategic view of Bambu & Prusa (including benchmarks of all flagship models)
Re: #5, the truly high road would be to release an open standard for RFID for printer filament, then we can all benefit. Bambu owners would as well, with the ability to identify spools from anywhere (it isn't as if any filament maker can hope to cover ALL of the materials available).
5) Bambu’s CEO is crazy intelligent. He’s an engineer (actually, an astrophysicist). He can do math. I am certain that they looked at a closed-supplies model and determined that the loss of market share from this restriction would not be offset by filament profits from the few who bought into this plan. So they chose the high-road and offered RFID benefits at a very modest price premium per spool. That’s a consumer friendly approach.
RE: A strategic view of Bambu & Prusa (including benchmarks of all flagship models)
4) I see every indication that Bambu is making money on each printer. Compare the P1S or X1C against any other consumer product such as a washing machine, a refrigerator, or an unsubsidized laser printer, etc and you will see that the pricing is comparable as is the technology. Crudely evaluated as dollars per pound or otherwise Bambu isn’t offering a profoundly remarkable deal. They aren’t selling 3D printers for $50. The Bambu printers are no more complicated than a laser printer or dishwasher.
Could you elaborate based on which numbers or sources you base that claim? By comparing it crudely to dishwashers? Dollars per pound (I assume you mean that funny US unit for mass, not the British currency) is a ridiculous way to compare production costs or return of investment.
The race to the bottom competition is selling halfway decent bed slingers optimized for low costs so they usually do not even feature proper linear bearings, never mind linear rails, are around 200 EUR. And those companies cut corners on QC in a big way, that is one of the largest cost factors in manufacturing. As Bambulab wants to offer a reliable product they can not do the same. Never mind that they offer a decent coreXY design, where the components (also Chinese ones) are much more expensive than those of race to the bottom barebones printer. Most importantly when comparing it to mainstream electronic consumer goods is that Bambulab, even though it is intending to bring scale to the market, are producing on a tiny scale. To ignore that makes the whole estimation meaningless. After all there is a reason why mass production is a big deal.
Now, if Bambulab is making money on every printer and if so how much and if the company is actually profitable I don't know, but do you have numbers on any of that? My assumption is not that they are selling at a loss, like eg many inkjet printer manufacturers their inkjet printers, but I assume that they are selling them on a tight margin. Everything else would be strange for a young company trying to establish a strong market share and staying relevant also against the copycat chinese competition.
Mk3s MMU2s, Voron 0.1, Voron 2.4
RE: A strategic view of Bambu & Prusa (including benchmarks of all flagship models)
Re: #5, the truly high road would be to release an open standard for RFID for printer filament, then we can all benefit.
That’s not their role. It would be arrogant for them to even suggest this publicly. And that is not consistent with their “walled garden” technology. (It is just your personal wish/agenda.)
The correct source for such a standard would be a consortium of filament manufacturers. They could agree on a standard and the printer manufacturers could then adopt it.
Bambu’s CEO is highly intelligent. He knows that if his company proposed a standard that a market leader like Prusa would likely NIH it and maliciously devise an incompatible standard. This would fragment the industry. Thus, Bambu can’t go down that path.
a standard like filament RFID is best to come from a filament manufacturer consortium.
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Dollars per pound (I assume you mean that funny US unit for mass, not the British currency) is a ridiculous way to compare production costs or return of investment.
...
if Bambulab is making money on every printer and if so how much and if the company is actually profitable I don't know, but do you have numbers on any of that
Are you just trying to be argumentative and feisty? (It seems so.)
"Dollars per pound" is indeed a remarkably good way to get a cost comparison between products in the same industry. When you want a very quick number that is +/- 25% it works startlingly well. Entirely accurate? No. But it is the absolute fastest way to get a ballpark estimate that is workable in accuracy.
There are a variety of methods used to get quick metrics for comparison. For example, counting air-conditioners on a rooftop is a reliable estimate of the number of people inside a building, or of measuring the number of computers in a data center. Looking at the average age of cars in a company's parking lot will tell you about the average salary and types of work of the people in the adjacent building. So, yes, dollars per pound gets you into a first-cut comparison.
Of course I don't have Bambu's financials, nor do I have Prusa's or any other company. But it isn't in any way necessary to have these (unless you just want to pick a fight.) What matters is relative cost and capital access. Prusa and Bambu both have adequate capital to get to where they are today. There are no signs that Bambu is capital constrained, although they are admittedly metering their expansion and intentionally deferred their X1-XL printer.
So the only question is whether they are buying market share through subsidy. There is no sign that they are buying market share. That's where the "Dollars per pound" estimate comes in. Bambu has a better weight/price ratio than Prusa, which is consistent with its "better value" proposition. However, it isn't triple or something preposterous. Now, you must step back and realize much of the weight is from the enclosure (low tech) and the typical Bambu sells for about the same price (+/-20%) of the Prusa., That is, there are no surprises.
I've worked in strategic planning most of my career. A variety of metrics are used when direct data is not available. For example, hire a private investigator to read the water meter and electric meter on a factory at 1 month intervals and you can start to graph factory output. We used to place an order with a competitor once a month just to get the invoice number of the order...so we could graph our competitor's sales.
I assure you that an excellent starting point on product evaluation is "Dollars per pound" for comparable goods.
RE: A strategic view of Bambu & Prusa (including benchmarks of all flagship models)
I am not a part of the 3D printing religion. For me it is a tool to build things, not much more special than a computer or a saw or hammer. So if Bambu has the better product for my needs I'll buy their tool. Generally I stick with the same brand as long as it serves me, which is why I have purchased Prusa printers to date, and with my crappy XL experience why I am now contemplating switching to Bambu. For mainstream (non exotic) printing, the Bambu seems to be the generally better choice: better quality, better value, better quality. Next year, who knows?
Have you used a Bambu printer? Whats your positive opinion of Bambu based on?
RE: A strategic view of Bambu & Prusa (including benchmarks of all flagship models)
Yes, that's why they could propose a standard for other filament makers to adopt. Start the conversation. Someone has to do it, it could be them. It's something Prusa does (in other areas).
Since/if Bambu lab is unwilling, perhaps Prusa should.
Re: #5, the truly high road would be to release an open standard for RFID for printer filament, then we can all benefit.
That’s not their role. It would be arrogant for them to even suggest this publicly. And that is not consistent with their “walled garden” technology. (It is just your personal wish/agenda.)
The correct source for such a standard would be a consortium of filament manufacturers. They could agree on a standard and the printer manufacturers could then adopt it.
Bambu’s CEO is highly intelligent. He knows that if his company proposed a standard that a market leader like Prusa would likely NIH it and maliciously devise an incompatible standard. This would fragment the industry. Thus, Bambu can’t go down that path.
a standard like filament RFID is best to come from a filament manufacturer consortium.
RE: A strategic view of Bambu & Prusa (including benchmarks of all flagship models)
I’ve used an X1C for about 2 months with an AMS. We were making an RC car (Badger) project and the project was designed to get other instructors up-to-speed on 3d printer technology for use in their courses. The main chassis printed in 2 hours, where my MK3S+ took 6. The part was made with Polymaker PLA+ and every bit as strong. There is no truth to a part being weak just because the printing is fast. If you don’t have a fast-flow filament and your temps remain the same, then the layer lines won’t bond as well.. but when tweaked, the parts (up to a speed point) can be every bit as strong. There has been info here about security and using Wifi of Bambu being prone to attacks. Also comments about the X1E being $1k more for minimal improvements. That is just speculation and misinformation. We put the X1C on a local wifi access point with no Internet connection and it worked well with an iMac using their slicer and local Lan mode. The chances that printer being hacked are so remote as to be negligible. There is very little info on the X1E, but already you can tell it is not competing with Prusa. It is aimed at Universities/Colleges/Organizations that require Enterprise network access (username and password) and perhaps support of TLS certificates. As someone who has maintained a College lab for 30 years, the improved heater chamber with better ventilation is aimed at those locations who use more engineering filaments and want to improve their warp-failure rate and who want to ensure VOCs are contained. Would you want your offspring working in a College/University lab for hours on-end, printing ABS on an open printer, while working next to it? So while you can put an MK4 or XL in an enclosure, add heating and add proper ventilation… there are not often things an Instructor has time to add to the build. The $1k increase in price cannot be dismissed as overpriced, as no one really knows their market or the extent and quality of the improvements until you have the printer to test. Your liability when working with students is extensive and this directly competes with Ultimaker brands and the like, which are have a wider penetration in the educational market. (Our College was testing the X1C and later decided to order 2 more.. this was the time when the MK4 was just announced, but not available) .. Originally we had 1 Ultimaker S3. When I was working with the Bambu in this College environment, its inability to support Enterprise logins required us to create our own local LAN network and wifi access point just to use the printer with any network connectivity. While I had permission to set this up, the IT departments of some other institutions are more restrictive and would not allow such use. Or, as was in our case, they must modify their network to support such limited connectivity. The College, I was at, had difficulty in configuring their network for necessary support (open firewall ports, non-enterprise logins, etc) and hence we created our own ad-hoc network. The ability for me to be in my College office and be able to connect to my printer in a lab, which might be in a different wing of the building and start a print with a filament in the AMS is a huge plus. I think the X1E will have huge potential in this setting. It is certainly what I’d want in my networking lab. I really like the MK4 product. In some ways it is superior for the X1C, but the really poor network connectivity design would limit my choosing this platform. Simple TCP utilities, such as ping do not work, I’ve read about issues connecting to Prusa’s cloud with Wifi, etc. And this is a acerbated by having two separate TCP stacks to maintain. So the X1E has very little cross-over with Prusa’s market. While the XL, multi-tool, has no competitor at its price point.
With all that being said, Bambu certainly has weaknesses. They have or had a quality issue with their bed. The bed on our original test unit was not as flat as my MK3+, but for our parts did not cause an issue. The repairability of the MK3 line is much better than what I’ve read about he X1C, although nothing broke in our 2 months of use. We did have initial issues with the AMS jamming. We could not get cardboard spools to work consistently (Polymaker, Eryone) and ended up respooling filament using the common manual respooler many people build. However, when we got the kinks worked out of the AMS I was surprised at how convenient it was. Initially I was going to order the X1C without the AMS. I would never recommend that now.
Bambu, at this birthing time, has no resources to create an RFID standard for all to follow. And this is not typically how standards get created. The need must be seen first and then it would be up to filament manufacturers to work with printer companies to try to form a single standard. This doesn’t always work. You can look at open standards with routers. Several vendors follow these open standards, and yet Cisco still uses its own proprietary standards, making it difficult, at times, to insert a non-Cisco router. Eventually they all work together, but, typically, it takes time.
Have you used a Bambu printer? Whats your positive opinion of Bambu based on?
RE: A strategic view of Bambu & Prusa (including benchmarks of all flagship models)
I’m a FREE market capitalist. Competition is almost always a good thing for the consumer. Let the markets decide who makes the best printers.
That being said, would I buy a Bambu printer? No
I have a few problems with Bambu but my biggest problem is where its made. I just don’t think it’s a good long term idea to send money to a communist country. I’ll stop there. This is not the time or place for that debate.