400 x 400 Prusa Printer?  

RE: 400 x 400 Prusa Printer?

Posted by: katie.o

[...]  folk who will swear blind you can't have a cheap large format printer and then there's photos like that which as you say show high quality prints.

I've only seen you insisting it would be reasonable for Prusa to duplicate the cheap large format printers. Nobody here has disputed that cheap large format printer exist, only that one with the quality of the Prusa Mk3 is not cheap. By all means, buy a cheap one and slap a Prusa logo on it and call it done.

RE: 400 x 400 Prusa Printer?

Posted by: bobstro

I've only seen you insisting it would be reasonable for Prusa to duplicate the cheap large format printers. Nobody here has disputed that cheap large format printer exist, only that one with the quality of the Prusa Mk3 is not cheap. By all means, buy a cheap one and slap a Prusa logo on it and call it done.

Hehehe, a straw man and a false dichotomy in one breath....! Let's not be silly. Completely wrong - ie the fact there are very good printers being produced for much cheaper is what gives Prusa opportunity - ie what would they add for $400 extra margin to improve reliability to a level that differentiates.

I guess we're just seeing Prusa differently - ie some people see Apple as the most innovative firm on Earth, others see the business model as a fast follower.

I put Prusa in the latter - ie some innovations no doubt, but what they're good at is taking concepts and iterating them to improvement - ie the MK1 wasn't the first, second or 50th of its design, but it was a well implemented cheap alternative.

Likewise Prusa haven't built their SLA printer, they've just bought someone and begun iterating gradually.

Hence my thought is simply that they should do likewise with large format FDM where there are plenty of competitors producing increasingly close quality and reliability prints.

Ie take the best elements of all these decent printers, use Prusa's experience and skills to decide where to invest extra quality in the design/components and then release at a higher price point (exactly as their range always has been)

RE: 400 x 400 Prusa Printer?

Posted by: katie.o

Ie take the best elements of all these decent printers, use Prusa's experience and skills to decide where to invest extra quality in the design/components and then release at a higher price point (exactly as their range always has been)

After some experience with Prusa's notion of quality, not so sure I'd agree they are the ones to carry that torch.  Though it seems they do at least try to innovate by combining best or better of available technologies.  

RE: 400 x 400 Prusa Printer?

Slightly cryptic Tim - you feel they're not best at innovating? (Bad experience??)

RE: 400 x 400 Prusa Printer?

Posted by: katie.o

Slightly cryptic Tim - you feel they're not best at innovating? (Bad experience??)

They are prone to taking shortcuts:  Presently they are cutting product quality to help their margin (the difference between their cost and the sales price).  They are also prone to producing products by forcing time to market without fully developing the design to be producible, lost opportunity costs; and reliable, which leads to excessive support costs.  Things to consider: the MMU/2, the Powder Coated sheets, the SL1. 

Based solely on their performance to date - if they started taking orders for a 500 mm cubed printer tomorrow, I'd not be in that line.  I'd wait until they actually had shipping inventory and validated user feedback the product was working as advertised (not necessarily from this site, either - too many fan-boys).  I'm not really interested in supporting a go-fund-me project without the Go-Fund-Me security.

RE: 400 x 400 Prusa Printer?

Posted by: Tim

Posted by: katie.o

Slightly cryptic Tim - you feel they're not best at innovating? (Bad experience??)

They are prone to taking shortcuts:  Presently they are cutting product quality to help their margin (the difference between their cost and the sales price).  They are also prone to producing products by forcing time to market without fully developing the design to be producible, lost opportunity costs; and reliable, which leads to excessive support costs.  Things to consider: the MMU/2, the Powder Coated sheets, the SL1. 

Based solely on their performance to date - if they started taking orders for a 500 mm cubed printer tomorrow, I'd not be in that line.  I'd wait until they actually had shipping inventory and validated user feedback the product was working as advertised (not necessarily from this site, either - too many fan-boys).  I'm not really interested in supporting a go-fund-me project without the Go-Fund-Me security.

 

 

 

I understand your angst, but to be honest, there will be plenty in line and that leaves more room for the rest of us.  

As for fanboys, I am not sure why some folks have to attack supports.  I guess you are trying to make your position feel better.  

RE: 400 x 400 Prusa Printer?

Posted by: bobstro

Posted by: charles.h13

The funny thing about global temperatures and water levels.  Some research indicates the oceans were higher and the temperatures were warmer during the time of the dinosaurs.  I am not an expert but I am a skeptic that Europe and North American can make a difference on their own.  <ore research is needed.  

That's pretty well known as fact, even to casual readers such as myself. PBS Eons is a great series on YouTube that covers this well. As I recall, it had to do with the fact that all the continents were one and moisture simply couldn't make it in far enough inland to affect conditions. Continental drift since then is responsible for moisture making it further inland into more areas and the resultant cooling, thus enabling the habitat that we are able to live in. That's also what put the ocean dwelling fossils atop rocky mountains. A bit has changed since then and we kind of like it the way it is now instead of then.

We're very likely past the point where any research will help and will instead be looking for means of surviving. The smart ones will have already started looking.

I do not like rockets that go boom.  After 20 years of military experience, I avoid them at all cost,  Loud noises have a harsh effect on me in general.  

I'd imagine hobbyist Scuds are frowned upon.

The milankovitch cycles, accepted scientific fact sine the 1920's, show it will cool down naturally in a few decades.  It also shows the temp would be rising even if humanity never existed.  We will be fine.

It is the next ice age I worry about...for our species, we all will be long dead.

RE: 400 x 400 Prusa Printer?

I agree that most likely preuss a will by somebody who's producing, or close to produce in, a large bed printer that uses a different technology to do it.

 I feel the current I 3 design doesn't scale well. They should come up with a new design that can go bigger and bigger and bigger.

RE: 400 x 400 Prusa Printer?

The design has already scaled a 400x400 and 300x300 by makers and engineers.  The Mega Prusa on instructible.  The only change they have made is Threaded rods instead of extrusions and plexiglass as a frame.  The videos and show ti printing well.  

RE: 400 x 400 Prusa Printer?

Posted by: CybrSage

[...] I feel the current I 3 design doesn't scale well. They should come up with a new design that can go bigger and bigger and bigger.

Exactly. There are plenty of big bed slingers around. We're definitely pushing the limits of physics. Interesting to note that some big printers that, in theory, should be plenty fast have to print slowly to maintain quality.

It all reminds me of the early days of home computer printers with the loud, cranky 9 pin dot matrix models. I don't much like resin, but I'm not convinced current FFF tech is the future. 

RE: 400 x 400 Prusa Printer?

https://www.instructables.com/id/Mega-Prusa-i3-Rework-8-x-Build-Volume/

I think a version without threaded rods and with aluminum for a frame extrusion would work.  

RE: 400 x 400 Prusa Printer?

Posted by: CybrSage

The milankovitch cycles, accepted scientific fact sine the 1920's, show it will cool down naturally in a few decades.  It also shows the temp would be rising even if humanity never existed.  We will be fine. 

Except for the minor detail you are wrong about the Earth being in a warming trend - accepted science is Earth was already in a thermal decline long before the modern era.  https://www.temperaturerecord.org/ Then something happened, something that is unexplained, yet very tangible, that reversed the cooling trend.  Theorists point to anthropomorphic effects like consumption of fossil fuels as the most likely candidate since the observation of consumption and atmospheric composition track in meaningful ways.   

So instead of getting cooler, 9 out of 10 researchers agree with the conclusion we are getting warmer.  

And here's a chart that puts a lot of information in one place ... be sure to scroll to the bottom to see what's happening today.

RE: 400 x 400 Prusa Printer?

Maybe the global warming threads need their own thread?  

RE: 400 x 400 Prusa Printer?

Prusa can't reliably get Y-Axis stalls under control with the current design.  So what happens with 4 times the mass with the same motor electronics?  Seriously folks - a good mechanical engineer needs to be involved to figure out power requirements (as in horsepower needed to accelerate, decelerate and control the mass being moved).  You don't just make the frame bigger and expect it to work the same. 

Using hope to say it will work without redesign is what earns people fan-boy status.  Wanting something to be true does not make it true.  The reason all these attempts are 5 years old but not yet available is because the idea failed.  And my guess is it failed because no engineering was done to ensure it would succeed.

RE: 400 x 400 Prusa Printer?

Posted by: Tim

Prusa can't reliably get Y-Axis stalls under control with the current design.  So what happens with 4 times the mass with the same motor electronics?  Seriously folks - a good mechanical engineer needs to be involved to figure out power requirements (as in horsepower needed to accelerate, decelerate and control the mass being moved).  You don't just make the frame bigger and expect it to work the same. 

Using hope to say it will work without redesign is what earns people fan-boy status.  Wanting something to be true does not make it true.  The reason all these attempts are 5 years old but not yet available is because the idea failed.  And my guess is it failed because no engineering was done to ensure it would succeed.

You are one of the very few with this complaint.  My printers work perfectly.  

RE: 400 x 400 Prusa Printer?

Another nature denialist ignores the facts that do not agree with group think.

RE: 400 x 400 Prusa Printer?

Posted by: charles.h13

Maybe the global warming threads need their own thread?  

It rather, no thread at all.  Plenty of places out there for people to say humanity is more powerful than nature...this forum is not one of them.  🙂

RE: 400 x 400 Prusa Printer?

Posted by: Tim

Prusa can't reliably get Y-Axis stalls under control with the current design. 

I also have not heard of this issue until just now.

I have replaced my X and Y with 0.9 Moons, but that was to combat VFAs.  Never had any other axis issues.

RE: 400 x 400 Prusa Printer?

What is this stall issue?  I don’t think I have it but am curious what the heck it is.  

RE: 400 x 400 Prusa Printer?

Posted by: CybrSage

Posted by: charles.h13

Maybe the global warming threads need their own thread?  

It rather, no thread at all.  Plenty of places out there for people to say humanity is more powerful than nature...this forum is not one of them.  🙂

My thoughts exactly.