RE: Which Mask is Better to Protect Covid-19 Virus

@cybrsage

This would only be true in a very small number of people.  99.95% of people take in more air than they need.  The mask does not reduce oxygen levels in that group and an argument that it does fails to take into account basic human physiology.  Just so you know, you are picking an argument with a physician and one of the medical planners for the US COVID response.  

Sure, if you have an underlying health condition, you should get a note from a physician.  I have written a few.  Then again, I also recommended the same patients avoid public areas because their condition would likely mean certain death if they catch COVID.

RE: Which Mask is Better to Protect Covid-19 Virus

@cwbullet

So you agree that people who verbally attack those not wearing a mask are assholes.   Good.

And you agree masks reduce airflow.  Good. 

You also agree there are people who cannot wear a mask due to the reduced oxygen levels they get from wearing a mask.  Good.

You agree with everything I said, yet are still arguing anyway.  What are you arguing over?

RE: Which Mask is Better to Protect Covid-19 Virus

Posted by: @cybrsage

[...] What are you arguing over?

The part where you claim that not wearing a mask shows some sort of solidarity for someone who -- as small as the odds are -- might get harassed. Going by your own statistics, even wearing a mask improperly is 40% effective. If we can slow the spread by 40% by even wearing a mask poorly, can you imagine how much we could slow it by wearing a mask properly? We've seen a significant drop in flu cases, largely due to simple behavior modification. A mask is part of that. It's the same reason we cover up when we sneeze and don't blow smoke in the face of emphysema patients. It's called giving a damn and being considerate. Not everybody is, but that's no excuse for not doing it.

In the last year, COVID-19 has killed more than any one of the 8 top 10 causes of death in the United States. In that period, it has killed more than the COMBINED total of:

• Stroke
• Alzheimer's
• Diabetes
• Influenza & pneumonia
• Nephritis
• Suicide

Even if you cut the official numbers in half, it has still killed more than the COMBINED TOTAL of the bottom FOUR leading causes of death in the US. If wearing a mask would help bring down the deaths from these causes by even 10%, I'm willing to be inconvenienced ever so slightly for a few months in order to do so. The difference is that wearing a mask will actually help slow the spread of COVID.

We are now facing variants that make it more important to get numbers down as quickly as possible. This disease can and will continue to spike indefinitely until we get it under control. It's pretty clear by now it will continue to kill until we do. With the possibility of re-infection increasing as we encounter more variants, there will be no herd immunity if we can't reduce the spread and widespread vaccination. Wearing a mask and practicing social distancing are simple measures that even small children understand help make a difference.

RE: Which Mask is Better to Protect Covid-19 Virus

Another tidbit: Within the next 90 days, COVID-19 will likely have killed more Americans than the COMBINED total of 7 of the top 10 leading causes of death, including Chronic lower respiratory disease. Wouldn't it be awesome if we could help people survive those causes by simply wearing a mask for a bit?

RE: Which Mask is Better to Protect Covid-19 Virus

@bobstro

Why do you make things up to get all bent out of shape over?  I suspect it is so you can "win".  Inventing a point, pretending the other person wrote it, just to "win" is pretty lame.

Good job!  Here is a fake cookie for your fake "win".  🍪 

Your emotional based outburst in the second post is even more lame than the lie from the first post.  SMH...

RE: Which Mask is Better to Protect Covid-19 Virus

Posted by: @cybrsage

Why do you make things up to get all bent out of shape over?  I suspect it is so you can "win".  Inventing a point, pretending the other person wrote it, just to "win" is pretty lame.

What am I making up? You made the assertion that wearing a mask puts people at risk of being accosted for not wearing a mask. I merely pointed out that such risk is minimal, and the benefit from wearing a mask greatly outweighs any such potential risk.

Your emotional based outburst in the second post is even more lame than the lie from the first post.  SMH...

It's hardly an emotional outburst. I'm using the data you cited.

Substitute "mask" with "seatbelt" and the point is the same. Some people can't wear seatbelts. Some people who are unable to have no doubt been scolded for not wearing seatbelts. That doesn't mean we should stop wearing seatbelts.

RE: Which Mask is Better to Protect Covid-19 Virus

Posted by: @cybrsage

@cwbullet

So you agree that people who verbally attack those not wearing a mask are assholes.   Good.

And you agree masks reduce airflow.  Good. 

You also agree there are people who cannot wear a mask due to the reduced oxygen levels they get from wearing a mask.  Good.

You agree with everything I said, yet are still arguing anyway.  What are you arguing over?

Not so much.  You missing the point.  The drop in oxygen is insignificant.  The reduction in the air is very minute and in fact, studies have already been done to show that they do not make a difference in COPD or asthma patients.  You would have to decrease the oxygen levels by 10-20% to make a difference.  Room air is 21-22% and we need 19..5%.  Symptoms start at 16-19%.  A mask will not do that and any patient where it would is already on a mask that delivers oxygen at a higher level than air can provide.

So yes, theoretically, a mask affects airflow but it does not do so in human physiology because we have reserve physiologic capacity.  Anyone who a mask would affect is already sick and needs supplemental oxygen.  

https://www.atsjournals.org/doi/10.1513/AnnalsATS.202007-812RL

RE: Which Mask is Better to Protect Covid-19 Virus

Another thing is that masks simple work at preventing influenza and COVID.  This year, we have had an all-time low for common colds and influenza.  That is not just a coincidence.  

RE: Which Mask is Better to Protect Covid-19 Virus

@bobstro

You mqde up my views, then attributed your fantasy to me.  You could have asked me instead of making up something, but you chose not to do so.

After that lie, nothing else really mattered, since it was all based in your lie. 

RE: Which Mask is Better to Protect Covid-19 Virus

@cwbullet

I hear what you are saying, but often theory and reality do not match.  When given the choice of believing a study that says X and a person with a condition who says the opposite, while gasping for air, I will side with the reality of the person over the theory of the study.

As an aside, you can do an extreme exertion test yourself.   Go running, get to the point where you feel you need to stop and gasp for air, then cover your mouth and keep running instead.  You will quickly find yourself stopping and taking off your mask.

Theory is great, reality is better. 

RE: Which Mask is Better to Protect Covid-19 Virus

@cybrsage

People have anxiety.  Anxiety does not equal hypoxia.  If Oxygen level remains stable, it is not due to lower oxygen level or air exchange.  Science is science and the fact is that a mask does not significantly impact airflow or oxygenation in most folks.  Sorry, your thoughts and theories don't equal reality.  

RE: Which Mask is Better to Protect Covid-19 Virus

@cwbullet

Removing the human part from a study about humans gives you a result that no longer applies to humans.

If a person feels they cannot breathe, that raises anxiety to a very high level, as you said.  What does a very high anxiety level do to respiration?  It increases its need, something the studies do not show.

Since airflow is reduced, all filters reduce airflow, it not only reduces oxygen inhalation but also reduces waste removal.  Combine that with hyperventilation caused by the mask induced anxiety and you have a serious problem.

Then you have Karen's who verbally attack the suffering person making it so much worse.  I hope you are not a Karen.

You must take the emotional response to the mask's effects into account.  Hence the theory not matching the reality...the study is flawed.

I assume you agree with me on physical exertion since you ignored it.  Greatly increasing the airflow need while making a cloth mask damp with sweat obviously causes the need to remove the mask.  If you do not agree, please say so and explain why, but I suspect you do.

There is a reason the CDC says when and who should not wear masks, and they conflict with what you say.

• Who should NOT use masks: Children under age 2 or anyone who has trouble breathing, is unconscious, or is incapacitated or otherwise unable to remove the mask without assistance.

Sorry that even the CDC says your thoughts and theories do not match reality.

RE: Which Mask is Better to Protect Covid-19 Virus

Posted by: @cybrsage

You mqde up my views, then attributed your fantasy to me.  You could have asked me instead of making up something, but you chose not to do so.

You posted some information, presumably for discussion. I responded. If you want to read some sort of emotion into that, I certainly am not going to try to stop you. Discussion boards are usually for two-way discussion. I noticed that you haven't posted anything 3D printing-related here in over 6 months, so this has been the only place that we've exchanged thoughts. 

After that lie, nothing else really mattered, since it was all based in your lie. 

You, of course, have no say in the matter. This is a public discussion form. Take it any way you want, but your thought and opinions matter little to me.

RE: Which Mask is Better to Protect Covid-19 Virus

@cwbullet

I also noticed you said "in most people".  Those people you are dismissing out of hand are the exact ones I keep referencing. 

They are just as human and important as you and I are, and they deserve to not be shouted at for doing as the CDC recommends.  They deserve to be treated with dignity and respect.

Do you agree?

RE: Which Mask is Better to Protect Covid-19 Virus

@bobstro

I easily have a say in what you claim are my views.  I will correct your lies about me as I see fit.  You are free to not make up stuff, but when you do and I see it, I will call you out on it.

You would call out people who make up lies about you, do not be shocked others do it as well.

Next time, just ask me instead of inventing things, it is the right thing to do.  Continue to do the wrong thing if you wish, it is your life, but don't be shocked when you are called out when you do.

My last response to you until I have to call out another lie.  I hope thay does not have to happen.  Just let it go you made up something, I called you out on it, move on.

Edit: fixed spellnig erorrs...

RE: Which Mask is Better to Protect Covid-19 Virus

Here's why I wear a mask and encourage others to do so:

1. Economic recovery

Based on recent experience, it's clear that we are not going to be able to fully open up our economy until it is safe to do so. Turning a region into an experiment in herd immunity was tried and failed numerous times in the US. Every aggressive reopening that was not also complemented by mask and distancing initiatives has been rolled back (see S. & N. Dakota). Given the virulence of this disease and the increase in both mortality and transmissibility we're seeing with recent variants, it won't be safe to do so until we reduce numbers. That can happen in 2 complementary ways:

• Voluntary compliance with social distancing and masking initiatives. We trade some inconvenience and discomfort for beating the numbers down to manageable levels.
• Vaccination. Things are improving on this front, but we've got a ways to go.

If we wear masks, distance, and use some common sense, we can start to get back to sporting events, schools, and coffee shops. Those businesses can begin to thrive again, and the millions that work in such industries can get back to work.  You can't argue against masks and for widespread openings in any logically coherent way. Small businesses are trying to get through this, and fighting against them to make a point is hurting those businesses and their employees.

2. Health and safety

If I wear a mask, I can still catch COVID-19. If I wear a mask, I might still transmit COVID-19 if I have it. In any case, the odds of transmission are reduced. According to one source in this thread, a poorly worn mask "only" reduces transmission by 40%. That's 40% on top of the other benefits of distancing, hand washing, and other minor behavior modification. The combined total effectiveness is far higher. This can be clearly seen in the reduced flu statistics we're seeing this year. It demonstrably works.

3. Compassion

If nothing else, wearing a mask shows some empathy for those who are sick, who have loved ones who have died, and who must continue to work in these dangerous times. If I could wear a mask for a few months to reduce the number of deaths from Chronic lower respiratory disease, Stroke, Alzheimer's, Diabetes, Influenza & pneumonia, Nephritis, and Suicide by 10% or more, I would certainly do so. Unfortunately, a mask won't help against those, but it will help against a disease that will have killed more people in the US than all of those causes COMBINED. Fortunately, wearing a mask clearly DOES do more than demonstrate empathy, though some people like to argue how much. I really don't care whether it's 10% effective or 70% effective. It's a relatively painless sacrifice to make for saving lives.

Basis for conclusion

My opinion is not based on some emotional desire. I plug 6 numbers into a spreadsheet, and the data is clear:

• The US population is approx. 330,746,845 per Wikipedia data extracted from the US Census Bureau as of 03/07/21.
  The case-fatality rate in the US (ratio of deaths to infected patients) is approx. 1.8% according to data from Johns-Hopkins University.
  Approx. 28,993,800 cumulative infections and 523,970 deaths attributable to COVID-19 have been reported by sources compiled by the NY Times sources as of 03/07/21.
• The daily infection rate in the US is approx. 60,258 per sources compiled by the NY Times sources as of 03/07/21.
• The daily hospitalization rate for diagnosed COVID-19 related causes in the US is approx. 45,932 per sources compiled by the NY Times as of 03/07/21, or 76.2% of reported cases.
• This death toll is higher than any one of 8 of the leading causes of death identified by the CDC in 2017.
• This death toll is higher than the COMBINED TOTAL of 6 of the leading causes of death identified by the CDC in 2017.
• This death toll is 8.9 times as many deaths attributed to influenza and pneumonia in 2017, at over 464,850 additional deaths.
• Based on these numbers, approx. 211,227,132 additional individuals in the US must be exposed in order to achieve a minimal herd immunity ratio of 70.0% in the absence of effective vaccination.
• In the absence of effective vaccination, these exposures can be anticipated to result in 3,802,088 additional deaths attributable to COVID-19 with a case-fatality rate in the US (ratio of deaths to infected patients) of approx. 1.8%, over 7.3 times the current reported number of deaths.
• Based on these numbers and assuming herd immunity without a vaccine is possible, achieving herd immunity without widespread behavior modification will take approx. 3,505 days to achieve, or 9 years, 7 months, and 4 days from today (approx. 10/11/30) with a current daily infection rate of 60,258 as of 03/07/21.

Many people are skeptical of these data sources, yet there is consensus that COVID-19 exists and is harming and killing people. Fair enough. Even if we account for over-reporting, the numbers are still staggering...

• If one is skeptical of the reported death toll and believes that deaths are over-reported by a factor of 2, there have still been approx. 261,985 deaths attributable to COVID-19 in the US as of 03/07/21.
• If one is skeptical of the reported daily infection rate and believes that infections are over-reported by a factor of 3, there are still approx. 30,129 new infections in the US daily as of 03/07/21.
• This death toll is higher than any one of 8 of the leading causes of death identified by the CDC in 2017.
• This death toll is higher than the COMBINED TOTAL of 4 of the leading causes of death identified by the CDC in 2017.
• This death toll is 4.4 times as many deaths attributed to influenza and pneumonia in 2017, at over 202,865 additional deaths.
• Based on these numbers, approx. 126,499,978 additional individuals in the US must be exposed in order to achieve a low-end estimate for herd immunity ratio of 40.0%.
• Based on these numbers, these exposures can be anticipated to result in 2,277,000 additional deaths attributable to COVID-19 with a case-fatality rate in the US (ratio of deaths to infected patients) of approx. 1.8%, over 8.7 times the current number of deaths using the lower values in the absence of effective vaccination.
• Based on these numbers and assuming herd immunity without a vaccine is possible, achieving herd immunity without widespread behavior modification will take approx. 4,199 days to achieve, or 11 years, 5 months, and 27 days from today (approx. 09/03/32) assuming a current daily infection rate of 30,129 as of 03/07/21.

So:

• Yelling at people for not wearing a mask when they can't is selfish and sucks.
• Not wearing a mask when out around people when you have no medical reason not to do so is selfish and sucks.
• Not wearing a mask when out around people and attempting to disrupt a business that is trying to stay open and keep people employed is selfish and sucks.
• Wearing a mask, along with other minor personal inconveniences, will help reopen our economy.
• Wearing a mask, along with other minor personal inconveniences, will help prevent the spread of COVID, avoid preventable long-term health consequences for many people who can't avoid exposure, and save lives. 
• Wearing a mask, along with other minor personal inconveniences, for a few months will help keep our healthcare system from being overwhelmed while vaccination rollouts continue.
• Wearing seatbelt sucks, but we do it, even if it's not a 100% guarantee of survival. Wearing a mask sucks but is not more than a minor inconvenience to most people. We should do it, even if it's not a 100% guarantee of preventing transmission.

Sources

• US population from Wikipedia citing US Census
• Daily infections & deaths from NY Times summary page
• CDC leading causes of death
• Case-fatality rate from Johns Hopkins University
• Herd immunity of 70% from American Lung Association

RE: Which Mask is Better to Protect Covid-19 Virus

Posted by: @cybrsage

I easily have a say in what you claim are my views.  I will correct your lies about me as I see fit.  You are free to not make up stuff, but when you do and I see it, I will call you out on it.

You overestimate my level of concern.

RE: Which Mask is Better to Protect Covid-19 Virus

@bobstro

Reading the So: section shows you agree with me, yet feel the need to argue anyway.

What are you arguing about when your stated views are what I have been saying?  Other than your lie about me, of course.

Help me understand your need to fight and argue with someone whose views you agree with.

RE: Which Mask is Better to Protect Covid-19 Virus

Posted by: @cybrsage

Reading the So: section shows you agree with me, yet feel the need to argue anyway.

It does seem we agree on some points, though I suspect not others. You are the one who is insisting that I am disagreeing. You did ask what the point of contention was on your earlier post and I clarified. You do realize that not all discussion is an argument, right?

What are you arguing about when your stated views are what I have been saying?  Other than your lie about me, of course.

This was a discussion about mask designs. You interjected with a discourse about the effectiveness of masks in reducing transmission. You don't seem to have contributed anything else on these forums for the last 6 months than this thread. I might ask what exactly your intent is?

Help me understand your need to fight and argue with someone whose views you agree with.

Help me understand your need to disrupt productive discussions on 3D printing designs with your own beliefs. Don't be surprised when others also have beliefs, some of which do not align with yours.

RE: Which Mask is Better to Protect Covid-19 Virus

@bobstro

My intent is exactly what you can see, to both shownthr lack of effectiveness and to show why Karens are evil and people should not be like them.

The spreading of truth is not disrupting the discussion.  It has continued just fine. 

They are not effective in stopping anything, so much so that the transmission rate of even the flu is high enough to ensure its continued spread while wearing a cloth mask.

What do you disagree with?  I have been saying the same thing the entire time.