Layer seams more visible on Mini vs MK3S
Getting into the grove of things with my new Mini and getting some generally beautiful prints except one thing... the seams are far more visible on prints from the Mini, like this:
This was printed with Prusament using the stock PrusaSlicer Prusament profile. I've printed the same part on my MK3S (with the same roll of filament and the stock profile as well) and those seams are in basically the same place but you have to look really hard to see them. The major problem on the print from the Mini is that those seams are slightly raised from the surface - In this particular part there is an internal large thread (M30 size) and those seams also appeared on that thread surface. This made it very hard to mate up with the corresponding part (also printed). Those seams are taking up my allowed tolerance.
Two thoughts on this:
- Is it possible this has to do with the retraction settings on the Mini due to the fact that it's a bowden setup instead of direct drive?
- The models that came on the USB stick with the printer are printing flawlessly without ANY visible seams. This leads me to believe it truly is a matter of slicer settings. I would've assumed that these were sliced with completely stock profiles but I suspect now they were not - but how do those profiles differ from stock?
RE: Layer seams more visible on Mini vs MK3S
[...] The models that came on the USB stick with the printer are printing flawlessly without ANY visible seams. This leads me to believe it truly is a matter of slicer settings. I would've assumed that these were sliced with completely stock profiles but I suspect now they were not - but how do those profiles differ from stock?
Assuming those models were sliced with PrusaSlicer, you can import them as a config to see what settings were used for slicing.
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RE: Layer seams more visible on Mini vs MK3S
[...] The models that came on the USB stick with the printer are printing flawlessly without ANY visible seams. This leads me to believe it truly is a matter of slicer settings. I would've assumed that these were sliced with completely stock profiles but I suspect now they were not - but how do those profiles differ from stock?
Assuming those models were sliced with PrusaSlicer, you can import them as a config to see what settings were used for slicing.
Oh right! I forgot about that.... when I get home I'll check that out. I probably can just pull the config comments out of the gcode and diff them with what I used to see what changed easily.
Thanks!
RE: Layer seams more visible on Mini vs MK3S
Oh right! I forgot about that.... when I get home I'll check that out. I probably can just pull the config comments out of the gcode and diff them with what I used to see what changed easily.
If you're ok with differy and the like, I'd load the gcode as a config, then save a config bundle. That way you can extract the printer, print and filament settings separately for additional study. I've gotten to the point that I have my own config bundles for each that I re-import whenever doing slicer upgrades. Check into the inherits = functionality in the config bundles as it can save you a lot of repetitive text.
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He is intelligent, but not experienced. His pattern indicates two dimensional thinking. -- Spock in Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan
RE: Layer seams more visible on Mini vs MK3S
@bobstro
Alright, so I did a bunch of diffing and the ONLY thing I could really find different between what was on the USB stick and what I sliced was that "wipe while retracting" is turned off on all the gcode that came on the USB stick. I checked in PrusaSlicer and sure enough, it's turned on... though it is for both the Mini and the MK3S profiles. Which is even weirder since if you look at the tool-tip for it, the default value is supposed to be false.
Anyways, even though it is turned on for my Mk3S profile (which wasn't showing the seams) I turned it off for my Mini profile and, sure enough, the seams went away. However....
For the record, I know why this is happening but not how to stop it... those marks are all made on nozzle moves. Two parts were printed at the same time and these marks only showed on the side facing the other part. So they marks are from the nozzle moving between the parts.
Makes sense why I don't see anything like this on the provided USB items - only one part printed at a time.
But still - I've printed these parts dozens of times on my Mk3 and these marks are at worst almost unnoticeable. But they look terrible on the Mini.
Any ideas of how to avoid this?
RE: Layer seams more visible on Mini vs MK3S
[...] Which is even weirder since if you look at the tool-tip for it, the default value is supposed to be false.
I think some of those defaults are still from the original Slic3r code on which PrusaSlicer was based.
I try to calibrate my extrusion multiplier to the point that wiping is no longer required to avoid stringing. Sounds like the Mini profiles on the USB stick are spot-on. Be sure to use whatever filament settings they use.
Anyways, even though it is turned on for my Mk3S profile (which wasn't showing the seams) I turned it off for my Mini profile and, sure enough, the seams went away. However....
Sorry, no pic shows. What's going on?
For the record, I know why this is happening but not how to stop it... those marks are all made on nozzle moves. Two parts were printed at the same time and these marks only showed on the side facing the other part. So they marks are from the nozzle moving between the parts.
That sounds like stringing. Printing cooler, fine-tuning your extrusion multiplier and increasing travel speeds can help with fine stringing (assuming that's what it is).
Makes sense why I don't see anything like this on the provided USB items - only one part printed at a time.
You can try moving the parts further apart, or using sequential printing to print each part one-at-a-time (with appropriate spacing and size limitations).
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He is intelligent, but not experienced. His pattern indicates two dimensional thinking. -- Spock in Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan
RE: Layer seams more visible on Mini vs MK3S
I'll go back and recheck if I missed something with the diff, but I don't believe anything else was different.
Weird you cannot see the picture - it even shows up in the quoted text in your response on my end. Try this link:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Ah4xBnoBPbYs9tbQ8
RE: Layer seams more visible on Mini vs MK3S
@adammhaile
How are you posting pics? None of them show up in this thread.
Pete
RE: Layer seams more visible on Mini vs MK3S
@pete-b3
They all show for me. Just pasting them into the edit window.
Let's see if this works.
RE: Layer seams more visible on Mini vs MK3S
@adammhaile
That one worked.
Other folks in this thread also reported that they could not see the images.
Pete
RE: Layer seams more visible on Mini vs MK3S
The ones that we can't see point to googleusercontent as the source. The one we can see was uploaded to Prusa forums.
Pete
RE: Layer seams more visible on Mini vs MK3S
Yeah - not sure what was up with that.
@bobstro - now that the pic shows up, any further thoughts? There's no stringing on it at all, just those little blobs where it moves from one to the other. Still wondering if it's related to bowden vs direct since my Mk3 is fine with same 0.2mm Quality profile (stock for each other than the wipe setting that is).
RE: Layer seams more visible on Mini vs MK3S
Yeah - not sure what was up with that.
@bobstro - now that the pic shows up, any further thoughts? There's no stringing on it at all, just those little blobs where it moves from one to the other. Still wondering if it's related to bowden vs direct since my Mk3 is fine with same 0.2mm Quality profile (stock for each other than the wipe setting that is).
Not the prusa app, but this came up in a search:
RE: Layer seams more visible on Mini vs MK3S
@pete-b3
I have been there 🙂 Been through all of that - was just kind of hoping that there was something specific that people already figured out for the Mini since, as noted, I'm not seeing this on the Mk3
RE: Layer seams more visible on Mini vs MK3S
[...] @bobstro - now that the pic shows up, any further thoughts? There's no stringing on it at all, just those little blobs where it moves from one to the other. Still wondering if it's related to bowden vs direct since my Mk3 is fine with same 0.2mm Quality profile (stock for each other than the wipe setting that is).
If I'm understanding correctly, you're not having issue with the pre-sliced gcode, only with files you slice yourself. Is that correct? And this problem only appears when you slice with multiple parts located in close proximity to each other, correct?
It seems to be related to the usual z-seam/retraction issues, but odd that you get smooth single-part prints. A few questions, some of which might be repetitive but I just want to be clear:
- Do you get any sort of bumps if only printing a single part? Sounds like no. How's the z-seam look?
- Have you tried changing the z-seam (Print Settings->Layers and perimeters->Advanced->Seam position) location?
- Did you try disabling wiping? Any change? Sounds like you disabled it and still get bumps with multi-part prints but not single. Any difference in the single parts with wiping enabled or disabled?
- Does spacing the parts further apart on the print bed affect the finish? You could try sequential printing (Print Settings->Output options->Sequential printing->Complete individual objects) with the parts spaced far enough apart if they're not too tall, but this is really only a test and not something you can use in every case.
- Does dialing back your extrusion multiplier (Filament Settings->Filament->Filament->Extrusion multiplier) make any difference? Definitely compare this setting to the pre-sliced gcode. I'm assuming you're using the same filament, correct?
The good news is that you're getting good results with the pre-sliced gcode, so it's not a hardware issue.
If you'd care to save your part arrangement and settings in a 3MF project file, zip it up and upload here, we can do some comparisons. I've only got a Mk3 at the moment, so others with Minis will have to chime in with anything hardware-specific.
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He is intelligent, but not experienced. His pattern indicates two dimensional thinking. -- Spock in Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan
RE: Layer seams more visible on Mini vs MK3S
Do you get any sort of bumps if only printing a single part? Sounds like no. How's the z-seam look?
Nothing really worth noting - the occasional tiny imperfection, but no it's clean with a single object
Have you tried changing the z-seam (Print Settings->Layers and perimeters->Advanced->Seam position) location?
Yep - Though, if I don't turn of "Wipe on Retract" all that does is move the seam problem so it's all over instead of in one area. "Wipe on Retract" completely removes the seam.
Did you try disabling wiping? Any change? Sounds like you disabled it and still get bumps with multi-part prints but not single. Any difference in the single parts with wiping enabled or disabled?
Yeah, see above. But on single part prints there still a seam with wipe on, but it is lesser.
Does spacing the parts further apart on the print bed affect the finish? You could try sequential printing (Print Settings->Output options->Sequential printing->Complete individual objects) with the parts spaced far enough apart if they're not too tall, but this is really only a test and not something you can use in every case.
Haven't really tried spacing them further. Can try later tonight.
Sequential wouldn't really work on this particular part - it's too tall for the extruder to avoid.
Does dialing back your extrusion multiplier (Filament Settings->Filament->Filament->Extrusion multiplier) make any difference? Definitely compare this setting to the pre-sliced gcode. I'm assuming you're using the same filament, correct?
Have not tried - though extrusion multiplier for both pre-sliced and self-sliced are 1.0 - the default for the profiles. As noted before - the only real difference between the profiles is the wipe on retract setting. And yes - same exact filament roll.
Here's a diff of the config from a pre-sliced model using the "0.2mm QUALITY MINI" profile and one I sliced with the same profile. I notice now that the temp is 5C diff which.... maybe that's the difference, but can't imagine it would cause that much of a problem. The start_gcode diff shouldn't really matter either. I already diffed them and the only thing changed is the added "M569 S0" (which puts the drivers is SpreadCycle mode instead of silent and "M92 E317" sets the extruder steps per mm but I checked and this is the default value anyways in the firmware.
46,47c46,47
< ; extruder_clearance_height = 25
< ; extruder_clearance_radius = 45
---
> ; extruder_clearance_height = 20
> ; extruder_clearance_radius = 35
184c185
< ; start_gcode = M569 S0 E \nG90 ; use absolute coordinates\nM83 ; extruder relative mode\nM92 E317 ; set steps/unit for extruder\nM104 S170 ; set extruder temp for bed leveling\nM140 S[first_layer_bed_temperature] ; set bed temp\nM109 R170 ; wait for bed leveling temp\nM190 S[first_layer_bed_temperature] ; wait for bed temp\nG28 ; home all without mesh bed level\nG29 ; mesh bed leveling \nM104 S[first_layer_temperature] ; set extruder temp\nG92 E0.0\nG1 Y-2.0 X179 F2400\nG1 Z3 F720\nM109 S[first_layer_temperature] ; wait for extruder temp\n\n; intro line\nG1 X170 F1000\nG1 Z0.2 F720\nG1 X110.0 E8.0 F900\nG1 X40.0 E10.0 F700\nG92 E0.0\n\nM221 S95 ; set flow
---
> ; start_gcode = G90 ; use absolute coordinates\nM83 ; extruder relative mode\nM104 S170 ; set extruder temp for bed leveling\nM140 S[first_layer_bed_temperature] ; set bed temp\nM109 R170 ; wait for bed leveling temp\nM190 S[first_layer_bed_temperature] ; wait for bed temp\nG28 ; home all without mesh bed level\nG29 ; mesh bed leveling \nM104 S[first_layer_temperature] ; set extruder temp\nG92 E0.0\nG1 Y-2.0 X179 F2400\nG1 Z3 F720\nM109 S[first_layer_temperature] ; wait for extruder temp\n\n; intro line\nG1 X170 F1000\nG1 Z0.2 F720\nG1 X110.0 E8.0 F900\nG1 X40.0 E10.0 F700\nG92 E0.0\n\nM221 S95 ; set flow
204,205c205,206
< ; support_material_xy_spacing = 50%
< ; temperature = 210
---
> ; support_material_xy_spacing = 60%
> ; temperature = 215
207c208,209
< ; threads = 8
---
> ; threads = 12
218c220
< ; wipe = 0
---
> ; wipe = 1
RE: Layer seams more visible on Mini vs MK3S
@bobstro - spacing them further apart changes nothing. And changing temp to 210 didn't really change anything either. Dropped extrusion multipler (down to 0.9) and it helped a little but also made the solid layers have lines that weren't really merging together.
RE: Layer seams more visible on Mini vs MK3S
@bobstro - spacing them further apart changes nothing. And changing temp to 210 didn't really change anything either. Dropped extrusion multipler (down to 0.9) and it helped a little but also made the solid layers have lines that weren't really merging together.
Hmm. I'm at a loss at this point. Good luck with it, and update us if you figure it out.
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He is intelligent, but not experienced. His pattern indicates two dimensional thinking. -- Spock in Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan
RE: Layer seams more visible on Mini vs MK3S
@adammhaile
Did you ever resolve this issue?
I have just got my first mini and and experiencing the same issue. Mk3 prints great and hides seams, but the mini is creating much more visible seams
RE: Layer seams more visible on Mini vs MK3S
I've been seeing similar seaming issues with my Mini which has been otherwise great. For the prints I've been doing so far the seams aren't an issue but it'd be nice to get the issue figured out before I move on to projects where smoother surfaces would be really nice. Like the OP my pre-sliced demo prints don't have any visible seams at all. Also like the OP I've been printing a decent amount of multi-item plates.
Based on my experience with my old Ender 3 (which I gave up on awhile back, so I'm rusty) I'm instinctively drawn to temperature tuning to start, then moving down the list to look at how the wipe is working out, print speed tuning, and maybe stepper driver settings.